I like it. And in the color that tutors. So you can bring the pain turn after turn.
chinkeeyong
★★★★☆ (4.4/5.0)(7 votes)
@Magnor_Criol: Actually, Damnation is black Wrath.
ClockworkSwordfish
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(3 votes)
I am noticing a wild discrepancy in Zenith's powers. This, for example, is good.
Luke_BPC
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(8 votes)
I don't see how reusable mass removal isn't as good as people think. This is relevant most of the time you draw it, and if you have multiples you'll see this over and over again. Also, it's CMC is only two, which means you can pull it with very little pain with a Dark Tutelage. In vampires, you can remove the whole board just to bring back your Bloodghasts, and this card could single-handedly make a new MBC possible in standart...
MasterOfEtherium
★☆☆☆☆ (1.8/5.0)(14 votes)
Daaaaammmmmmmmmm! Permanent Counters And It Goes Back To Your Berry SICK! Art Is Wicked And I Love The MOON! - Master Of Etherium
bri_boomer
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(2 votes)
This vs Consume the Meek slot. I wonder which one is better? This has more flexibility where consume the meek is instant speed.
Bursama
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
... This is quite nice. With proliferation in the picture, this can be quite deadly...
SereneChaos
★★★☆☆ (3.9/5.0)(5 votes)
I. LOVE. This. Card.
It wipes.
It's flexible.
It's recurring.
It kills indestructibles.
It permanently cripples survivors.
It plays nice with proliferate.
And it does it crazy cheap and in BLACK.
Irecane
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
This card saved me so many times during the Prerelease yesterday. I wish I got had Massacre Wurm that time.
Magnor_Criol
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
What do you mean "the closest we'll get"? This is black Wrath. Sure it doesn't specifically say "destroy" but this is more black's flavor. And in a block with a bunch of indestructible creatures this works better. AND what it doesn't outright kill will be significantly weaker for the rest of the time.
Also consider that you can cast this for 1BB to put just one -1/-1 on everybody, which is usually as good as a Wrath against a weenie deck and is one mana cheaper. And 3 mana to set everyone up for sick proliferate shenanigans is pretty dang good.
Just a question 'cause I'm quite a dummy, does this affects Mirran Crusader or not? I'm still confuse with the word "each" in a cards effect.
Nighthawk42
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Second best of the Sun's Zenith cycle only because green is so good. Did B/U control really need another card to keep agro decks out of the picture?
With all the draw and deck searching mechanics, even a single copy could recur frequently.
SolidSoldier
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
So, so good.
@jumpenrun: Yeah, the counters would still stick to the Mirran Crusader, because protection from means that it only protects from damage, targeting, being blocked, or enchanted. The Black Zenith does none of those things so it bypasses the protection.
divine_exodus
★★☆☆☆ (2.2/5.0)(2 votes)
"It goes back to your berry" Etherium says...
That's a new one.
iaiji
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(3 votes)
Black Sun's Zenith + Liliana Vess + Proliferate = Why thank you for assembling MY army for me lol
This is better than Damnation for this block, what with Indestructible creatures roaming about. Between this and Consume the Meek, U/B control will be a lot more fun in Standard.
SorianSadaskan
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
This kills indestructible creatures, those who look down on this should reconsider their decisions.
Jokergius
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
@jumpenrun: Well, Mirran Crusader will get the counters, because protection: prevents damage dealt and targeted by black spells and green spells (and since Black Sun's Zenith is not damage so it is not safe from the carnage); cannot be dealt damage by black and/or green creatures (unblockable, yay!!); So, yeah...Massacre Wurm kills it, the sun kills it...Mutilate, Damnation anything that kills things indirectly. Sac (Gatekeeper of Malakir)...yeah, all that good stuff.
@Zenzei: How, pray tell, would you say "not good as people think???" If you're going to state this, please provide a good reason why.
d-_-b
DeathDark
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
THIS is what it means to play Black.
rufio_massacre
★★☆☆☆ (2.8/5.0)(2 votes)
DAAAAANG dis card be flippin' back lids bangin boards and cats be whinin' "oooooh don't wipe me up so bad son."
Ferlord
★★★★☆ (4.9/5.0)(12 votes)
Black Sun's Zenith, oh won't you come... And wash away the battlefield... Black Sun's Zenith, oh won't you come, oh won't you cooommmmeeee...
i've got nothing insightful besides the recycling awesomeness :P
Diachronos
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Magnor_Criol said:
"Also consider that you can cast this for 1BB to put just one -1/-1 on everybody, which is usually as good as a Wrath against a weenie deck and is one mana cheaper. "
Even better when you cosider that one of the closest things to that that was released recently is Choking Fumes, which costs 1cmc more and only works during combat.
I think it can combo well with Massacre Wurm if you can get the mana, too. -2/-2 from the Wurm, then even more from the Zenith... as long as MW stays alive long enough for his graveyard effect to kick off, your opponents are going to lose a LOT of life.
Werny
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Someone else caught on to the ridiculous connection between this and Necroskitter. Absolutely ridiculous. This, Necroskitter, Kulrath Knight and Everlasting Torment = fun game. I've got one of these, two Massacre Wurms... a few more purchases and my friends will officially hate on me something fierce.
dragonking987
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
its not like lorwyn had a millon better ways of killing creatores with -1/-1 counters power leek.
ratchet1215
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM
What's that? That's the sound of a limited nuclear bomb going off (maybe even Constructed...I guess we'll see).
paddameester
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(6 votes)
Hey y'all,
Lot of people say this is a good sweep card since it "bypasses shroud and other targeting effects". I disagree with that statement. Black sun's says each creature so it targets each creature individually. Damnation, and Wrath, says all creatures which is a global effect that does not target. Therefore black sun cannot be used against protected creatures or creatures with shroud.
Out of FAQ:
***Cycle: Zeniths***
The _Mirrodin Besieged_ set includes a cycle of five Zeniths, powerful spells that can be drawn multiple times over the course of a game.
Black Sun's Zenith {X}{B}{B} Sorcery Put X -1/-1 counters on each creature. Shuffle Black Sun's Zenith into its owner's library.
* If a Zenith is countered by a spell or ability or because all of its targets are illegal when it tries to resolve, it will be put into its owner's graveyard. That is, none of its effects will occur.
According to me, of all the zenith's the black sun is the only one which might have multiple targets, and therefore be countered if all the creatures have shroud or protection (each creature is illegal).
If there is someone who could shed some mtg rules light on this matter I'd appreciate it. The comprehensive rules are not very clear about shroud and the "each" effect or what is classed as a global effect.
Thanks.
WiggleWurm
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
@paddameester Black Sun's Zenith does not target anything therefore protection and shroud effects make no difference. Also it is not considered to be countered even if no creatures receive -1/-1 counters, say because the only creatures on the board are Melira's Keepers. The spell still resolves and is shuffled back into its owner's library. I would suggest going to the Rules Forum next time you need clarification.
lorendorky
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Sick, Twisted and damn near broken :) I love the zeniths, especially in Commander.
EpicBroccoli
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
@HairlessThoctar
Not only is it more splashable, it also is more permanent for those big beaters you can't quite remove as well as being far more flexible in mana cost.
Demonic_Math_Tutor
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
This card is broken as an instant. Its so funny to see m opponents reaction when he sinks the mana hes been stockpiling for 5 turns on a White Sun's Zenith and you pay four mana to wipe out their entire pus sy cat army. Those poor pussies never stood a chance...
Yoto_Megachi
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
@paddameester Shroud and protection both say "Can't be targeted," and Black Sun's Zenith doesn't use the word "target," so it will affect even creatures with shroud or protection from black. Rule of thumb is: if it doesn't say "target," then it can get through shroud.
On topic: very nice card, worth putting in any limited deck, even if it's your only black card. Also with 2 cmc you can search for it with the various 2 cmc trasmute cards.
Wrexlev
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
Will go nicely with Melira
DacenOctavio
★★☆☆☆ (2.8/5.0)(2 votes)
@ paddamaster:
There is no way the game itself will counter this spell for any reason. When a spell would resolve, if it has one or more illegal targets, the game counters the spell as a state based action. A spell may only have targets, legal or illegal, if the text of the spell or the effects of the spell refer to one or more specific targets.
Because the word target appears nowhere in the text box of Black Sun's Zenith, its playability is not hampered by creatures with Shroud, Protection, or creatures with "troll-shroud." The only creatures that would not receive -1/-1 counters are the ones that specifically say in their own text boxes that they cannot have counters placed on them, e.g. Melira, Sylvok Outcast, Melira's Keepers, and Tatterkite. Note that even if there are no creatures in play, or if the only creatures in play are the above creatures, Black Sun's Zenith would still resolve. It just wouldn't put counters on those creatures.
There are nuances in spell design; just because you can play a spell and afford its mana cost doesn't mean it will necessarily effect the game.
Paleopaladin
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(3 votes)
I love, LOVE, *LOVE* it when mono-black is given answers to pro-black!
SoulShatterer
★★☆☆☆ (2.0/5.0)(1 vote)
Not one of the better Zeniths, but not bad, either. It also saves you from mill, so thats always a plus.
SeiberTross
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
Unless your in a situation where you want to leave a ton of mana open, 99% of the time this IS Damnation for the same effect.
Except situationally this is better. Because you can selectively leave things alive, play it for less mana earlier, get around super annoyances of many many kinds, & on top of it all this combos off Necroskitter & Flourishing Defenses etc etc etc...
Basically, run it, you'll love it.
TheSwarm
★★☆☆☆ (2.8/5.0)(2 votes)
Life's Finale? Idk, I think this is better, but finale def has strongsides.
scumbling1
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(2 votes)
"Not one of the better Zeniths, but not bad, either. It also saves you from mill, so thats always a plus."
It only reshuffles itself into your library upon resolution of the card's effect. If it gets milled from your library into your grave, it will just stay there.
Vinifera7
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
I guess it could depend on the situation, but I really like the fact that it puts X -1/-1 counters on everything rather than just giving -X/-X until end of turn like Bane of the Living.
mrhardy12
★★★★☆ (4.1/5.0)(5 votes)
Myr Infinite Mana combo, as others before have stated. 2 Galvanizers to untap the others, and at least 2 mana's worth on Myr on the field and you have infinite mana, however long it takes to tap them all.... Anyway, EACH Zenith has its uses with this (Well, Black and Green are a bit more difficult, but...):
White Sun's Zenith: Instant-speed, infinite 2/2 Cat Tokens.
Blue Sun's Zenith: Instant-speed, infinite draw on opponent to auto-kill, or "draw 20 cards from own deck. Shuffle this back into your deck" at instant-speed, to have them all at the start of your turn.
Black Sun's Zenith: Kill anything and everything on the field. Bit worse with the Myr infinite mana, since all of your Myr die. More of a "you can win with your creatures next turn? No. You can't" use.
Red Sun's Zenith: Um, Demonfire that can be countered, but can reshuffle itself, with infinite damage to enemy while still playing in Standard? Yes, please.
Green Sun's Zenith: Bit harder, since it only snatches GREEN creatures. Still possible, though.
Interestingly enough, the two Phyrexian Zenith cards aren't a good idea with the Myr Infinite Mana combo usually, since they either kill all creatures on the field, including your own, or summon a Green creature. The Mirran ones, however, all rule. Two are instant-speed (meaning INFINITE 2/2 Cats that can attack the next turn! :D), and can royally screw over an enemy, or infinite damage at Sorcery speed to auto-kill an enemy player. The Mirran Zenith cards are brilliantly epic with the Myr infinite mana, while the Phyrexian ones aren't.... That is the definition of "interesting" in Magic.
Anyway, this card isn't worth the infinite mana combo from Myrs by itself. It's essentially a Wrath of God that way, just in Black. Lif'e's Finale is better. Phyrexian Rebirth is better. I mean, yeah, this kills EVERYTHING. Guess what? Those two cards do it better. And they get an extra effect.
Note: Out of all of the Zenith cards, this has the second highest rating. Why? I mean, infinite mana + any Zenith boosts its rating, IMO, as long as the combo is good. This combo isn't.
WateryMind
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Very good mass black removal. Combos explosively with Flourishing Defenses and Coat of Arms (I had 72 72/72 Elves with this combo xD)
Unfortunately, in straight removal, completely outclassed by Life's Finale and Damnation. Still fun though.
Blackshayde
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
This card is insanely awesome. Great customizable board-sweeping and even if you don't have enough juice to take out the big creatures, the -1 -1 counters wil make them into weaklings. If there's a reason to splash black, this is it. Awesome art to boot.
Shadoflaam
★★★★☆ (4.6/5.0)(4 votes)
Hang my head, Hold my fear, Till you all just disappear! Black Hole Sun, won't you come...
jfre81
★★★☆☆ (3.8/5.0)(2 votes)
And for my next trick, I'll make your Knight Exemplar and his merry band of "indestructible" cronies disappear before your very eyes.
CrowJonSnow
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
i may be wrong, but i'm pretty sure this kills EVERY creature.
since 0 toughness kills as a state based action, indestructibility doesn't work it doesn't target, so things with protection aren't safe it doesn't deal damage, so that's another way around protection, and damage prevention cards like vigor
with enough mana, it even kills emrakul, the aeons torn, though black isn't big on mana ramp
pedrodyl
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(5 votes)
I think you guys are missing the point. This kills indestructibles. Wrath of God, etc. does not. Let's say you're playing EDH and there is an Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre out and a Progenitus. This gets rid of them both. Sure, at a cost of , but it gets the job done.
Anathame
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Why does it have to be black? keepin the brothers down!
bagilis
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
one of the best removals black ever got
TrueKitsonga
★★★☆☆ (3.0/5.0)(1 vote)
One of the most "thorough" mass removal spells in the history of Magic, survived only by Melira, her Keepers and "part-time" creatures like manlands, Hawk statues, etc.
Second only to Apocalypse, but you don't have to discard, and you get to keep noncreature permanents. I can't remember if there is an "Exile all creatures" card in Magic. If there isn't, then Black Sun's Zenith is the most thorough.
Enemy_Tricolor
★★☆☆☆ (2.8/5.0)(3 votes)
This absolutely brutalizes multiplayer games. Not only are you routinely taking out tons of creatures, but given the length of multiplayer games, chances are you're going to see this card at least a few times.
Also, nothing feels better than drawing the hate of four other players with no creatures on the board to do anything about it.
FYI, this KILLS things with Undying. They don't come back. Good ol' Black Sun retains it's title of "I Kill Everything! (Except Melira -_-)"
"If a creature ever has +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters on it, the two kinds of counters immediately "cancel out," one for one, until only one kind of counter remains. For example, a creature with three +1/+1 counters and two -1/-1 counters would end up with one +1/+1 counter. There's a twist, though: If a creature with +1/+1 counters on it gets enough -1/-1 counters to kill it, it dies before the two counters have the chance to cancel out. For example, if your Strangleroot Geist with a +1/+1 counter on it got three -1/-1 counters from Skinrender's "enters the battlefield" ability, the Geist would die with one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters and wouldn't return to the battlefield."
A brilliant card in my "Casual" WUB control deck. (I would call it esper, but it doesn't have any artifact sub-theme) In a format such as casual where there are so many different ways to build a deck, it's important for a good control deck to be able to answer anything that your opponent throws at you. And this card does it wonderfully.
The obvious competition is Day of Judgment, which is also in the deck. From face value, this just looks weaker. However, I've found that this does quite a few things that DoJ doesn't. It kills indestructible and regeneration, obviously, but it's uses aren't limited to just that. It goes back into your deck, which means that if you really need it again, you have a chance to find it. Also, you can continue to add pressure to the board by putting out big creatures, forcing your opponent to play into it more, and then kill all their creatures while only wounding your own.
Of course, it doesn't match up well against big creatures, or at least not as well as Doj, which will always cost 4 for a wrath. That definitely is a big weakness. However, I find that my counter/spot removal suite does a good job of answering them, allowing me to save this for their weaker creatures. It's not good against every deck, but then again, what control spell is?
ajolt151
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Ah yes, this helps mono black Standard decks in two ways: it allows for removal against hexproof decks and clears the way for your undying creatures (Geralf's Messenger and those under Mikaeus, the Unhallowed's control) to come back again and again.
shotoku64
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
One of the best board wipers ever, because it kills EVERYTHING! Shroud? Yes Protection from Black? Yes Indestructible? Triple Yes. Good thing it's not easily splashable. By the way Totema, nobody plays Melira. Your argument is invalid.
EmoJesus26
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Black Hole Sun...wash away the rain.
And by rain, I mean W tokens
Chrs84
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Outstanding card.
Continuing to look into the mechanics, I was thinking: because in non-dying circumstances or initial circumstances where: “the two kinds of counters immediately cancel out”, I assumed that the same “immediate” resolution would be applied to circumstances where the -1/-1 are greater than the amount of +1/+1 and cre’s actual toughness. But the info seems to supports that any moment a creature has 0 or less life it’s like it heads to the graveyard and the rest of the stack of stuff happening with the creature (if there is any on its stack) ceases to deal with the creature, although stuff on its stack may still trigger other things, it will not do any immediate stuff to that creature since the creature is now considered not on the playing field but in or on the way to the graveyard. Which I then assume is the reason why the death of the cre can send it to the graveyard with both – and + counters on it.
I would have thought that if a cre has 2 +1/+1 counters and 1 toughness for a total of 3 toughness, and you give that cre 3 -1/-1 counters, the 3 -1/-1 counters would eat-up the 2 -1/-1 counters, leaving 1 -1/-1 counter left which then eats-up the cre’s remaining 1 toughness, but apparently this is not the case. I’m sure there’s even more ways to elaborate on exactly what’s happening with the mechanics of the effect and resolution.
I’m then figuring if a 1/1 cre with 2 +1/+1 counters on it gets hit with a Lightning Bolt, the cre dies and goes to the graveyard with its 2 +1/+1 counters, etc but if that 1/1 cre with 2 +1/+1 counters gets targeted with 3 -1/-1 counters, it goes to the graveyard with both the 3 -1/-1 counters and the 2 +1/+1 counters it originally had?? (it dies before the different counters have a chance to cancel out).
Lazyblazey
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Sure, you can use it for mass removal. But you can also use it to simultaneously shrink your opponent's creatures and de-counter your Undying creatures for just 3 mana. Pretty impressive, methinks.
TheWrathofShane
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
This card is a champion. Completely shocked at this low rating, Deserves at least a 4.5/5 if your picky. I give it a 5/5.
Gcrudaplaneswalker
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Even Avacyn must kneel to the Black Sun
Averyck
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Kulrath Knight's best friend. Hello sorcery speed shutdown!
j_mindfingerpainter
★★★☆☆ (3.0/5.0)(1 vote)
I think I'd prefer something that's like:
Black Sun's Sweeper {3}{B}{B}
Sorcery Rare
Put X -1/-1 counters on each creature, where X is the highest toughness among those creatures.
Hey, it'd be overpowered, but it would also be a better answer to Thrun.
Anubis13
★★★★☆ (4.0/5.0)(1 vote)
@Xineombine Completely untrue. Indestructible prevents all forms of "destroy" effects, targeted or not. This includes destruction via damage as well. Reducing the toughness of an indestructible card to zero or exiling them are the most common/reliable way of getting rid of them. The reminder text for indestructible states: "(Effects that say "destroy" don't destroy that permanent. An indestructible creature can't be destroyed by damage.)" Nowhere in there is anything about targeting mentioned.
As a result, this card (Black Sun's Zenith) is in fact quite useful for removing indestructible creatures, particularly if your opponent has found a way to add hexproof/shroud to said indestructible creature(s).
enjoy
★★★★☆ (4.5/5.0)(1 vote)
kulrath knight, every creature you control is unblockable and they can't swing =)
BongRipper420
★★★★☆ (4.5/5.0)(1 vote)
This is solid black wrath. I have a deck which runs both this and Wrath of God, and usually I'm happier to see this than the latter. This card has the advantage of being able to selectively kill creatures, while still getting around shroud/hex proof, regenerate and indestructible. Even better, you can let your finishers continue beating face. All this on top of being a wrath effect for mono black is what makes this a solid card.
This is a legitimate mill-win condition. If you narrow your library to four or so of these and "wrath" every turn, they will run out of deck.
Stupid Phyrexians. Also, this is the only wrath that can kill indestructible creatures, contrary to stupid Xineombine who is an outlay a n00b who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. And don't try to loophole that statement be saying exile-wraths can kill indestructible too, because I said kill, not remove.
Jojabi
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(1 vote)
Really shines in a planeswalker deck with a little proliferation spliced in. Hoping to make it work more or less. It's probably going to end up one of those fun ideas as opposed to the more functional ones...
RetroGamer3
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
My favorite black mass removal card ever. If it dose not kill a creature it weakens them bad.
@mattszc "Can Black Sun's Zenith kill Grim Poppet?" I just made an account to see if I could answer this. Tried to post already, and it didn't show up, so i'm sorry if this is a double post.
As long as the caster pays 4 for the x, grim poppet will die, and here's why: Assuming grim poppet has 3 counters, its controller can respond to black sun's zenith by activating its ability 3 times, making its power/toughness = 4/4.
Then, black sun's zenith will resolve, adding four -1/-1 counters to grim poppet, and it's not possible to respond during the resolution of the spell (for example, even if black sun's zenith said "if x is at least 1, then add a -1/-1 counter to all creatures, then repeat this process for every mana paid for x past 1," you still couldn't activate grim poppet in between those additions). (I think that both wordings would always have exactly the same outcome, does a more knowledgeable user know if that's true?)
At the end of the spell, the "game state" gets checked before players can respond, and grim poppet has 4 counters and 0 toughness, so it's legally dead and goes to the graveyard. I have heard this called a 'state-based effect', which may be helpful to you for future reference.
Unfortunately for the controller of grim poppet, he doesn't get to remove those counters before they kill it. Fortunately, however, as long as x is 3 or less, grim poppet can live through it (and end up with more 'ammo' too).
I hope that helped, and if anybody can see an error I made, let me know :)
lungsoftheocean
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
It's this or Damnation (ps. The flavor connection between the two cards is simply brilliant). And with Damnation pushing $30 a card, this is much better.
A complete shoe in for any Dimir or Esper control deck in casual Modern or EDH. Playing 4 means you'll more than likely be wiping the board over and over.
Comments (90)
This compares favorably to Mutilate, but much more splashable.
It wipes.
It's flexible.
It's recurring.
It kills indestructibles.
It permanently cripples survivors.
It plays nice with proliferate.
And it does it crazy cheap and in BLACK.
I wish I got had Massacre Wurm that time.
Also consider that you can cast this for 1BB to put just one -1/-1 on everybody, which is usually as good as a Wrath against a weenie deck and is one mana cheaper. And 3 mana to set everyone up for sick proliferate shenanigans is pretty dang good.
@chinkeeyong - Touche, sir. =p
Did B/U control really need another card to keep agro decks out of the picture?
With all the draw and deck searching mechanics, even a single copy could recur frequently.
@jumpenrun: Yeah, the counters would still stick to the Mirran Crusader, because protection from means that it only protects from damage, targeting, being blocked, or enchanted. The Black Zenith does none of those things so it bypasses the protection.
That's a new one.
@Zenzei: How, pray tell, would you say "not good as people think???" If you're going to state this, please provide a good reason why.
d-_-b
And wash away the battlefield...
Black Sun's Zenith, oh won't you come, oh won't you cooommmmeeee...
i've got nothing insightful besides the recycling awesomeness :P
"Also consider that you can cast this for 1BB to put just one -1/-1 on everybody, which is usually as good as a Wrath against a weenie deck and is one mana cheaper. "
Even better when you cosider that one of the closest things to that that was released recently is Choking Fumes, which costs 1cmc more and only works during combat.
I think it can combo well with Massacre Wurm if you can get the mana, too. -2/-2 from the Wurm, then even more from the Zenith... as long as MW stays alive long enough for his graveyard effect to kick off, your opponents are going to lose a LOT of life.
What's that? That's the sound of a limited nuclear bomb going off (maybe even Constructed...I guess we'll see).
Lot of people say this is a good sweep card since it "bypasses shroud and other targeting effects". I disagree with that statement. Black sun's says each creature so it targets each creature individually. Damnation, and Wrath, says all creatures which is a global effect that does not target. Therefore black sun cannot be used against protected creatures or creatures with shroud.
Out of FAQ:
***Cycle: Zeniths***
The _Mirrodin Besieged_ set includes a cycle of five Zeniths, powerful spells that can be drawn multiple times over the course of a game.
Black Sun's Zenith
{X}{B}{B}
Sorcery
Put X -1/-1 counters on each creature. Shuffle Black Sun's Zenith into its owner's library.
* If a Zenith is countered by a spell or ability or because all of its targets are illegal when it tries to resolve, it will be put into its owner's graveyard. That is, none of its effects will occur.
According to me, of all the zenith's the black sun is the only one which might have multiple targets, and therefore be countered if all the creatures have shroud or protection (each creature is illegal).
If there is someone who could shed some mtg rules light on this matter I'd appreciate it. The comprehensive rules are not very clear about shroud and the "each" effect or what is classed as a global effect.
Thanks.
Not only is it more splashable, it also is more permanent for those big beaters you can't quite remove as well as being far more flexible in mana cost.
Shroud and protection both say "Can't be targeted," and Black Sun's Zenith doesn't use the word "target," so it will affect even creatures with shroud or protection from black. Rule of thumb is: if it doesn't say "target," then it can get through shroud.
On topic: very nice card, worth putting in any limited deck, even if it's your only black card. Also with 2 cmc you can search for it with the various 2 cmc trasmute cards.
There is no way the game itself will counter this spell for any reason. When a spell would resolve, if it has one or more illegal targets, the game counters the spell as a state based action. A spell may only have targets, legal or illegal, if the text of the spell or the effects of the spell refer to one or more specific targets.
Because the word target appears nowhere in the text box of Black Sun's Zenith, its playability is not hampered by creatures with Shroud, Protection, or creatures with "troll-shroud." The only creatures that would not receive -1/-1 counters are the ones that specifically say in their own text boxes that they cannot have counters placed on them, e.g. Melira, Sylvok Outcast, Melira's Keepers, and Tatterkite. Note that even if there are no creatures in play, or if the only creatures in play are the above creatures, Black Sun's Zenith would still resolve. It just wouldn't put counters on those creatures.
There are nuances in spell design; just because you can play a spell and afford its mana cost doesn't mean it will necessarily effect the game.
Except situationally this is better. Because you can selectively leave things alive, play it for less mana earlier, get around super annoyances of many many kinds, & on top of it all this combos off Necroskitter & Flourishing Defenses etc etc etc...
Basically, run it, you'll love it.
It only reshuffles itself into your library upon resolution of the card's effect. If it gets milled from your library into your grave, it will just stay there.
White Sun's Zenith: Instant-speed, infinite 2/2 Cat Tokens.
Blue Sun's Zenith: Instant-speed, infinite draw on opponent to auto-kill, or "draw 20 cards from own deck. Shuffle this back into your deck" at instant-speed, to have them all at the start of your turn.
Black Sun's Zenith: Kill anything and everything on the field. Bit worse with the Myr infinite mana, since all of your Myr die. More of a "you can win with your creatures next turn? No. You can't" use.
Red Sun's Zenith: Um, Demonfire that can be countered, but can reshuffle itself, with infinite damage to enemy while still playing in Standard? Yes, please.
Green Sun's Zenith: Bit harder, since it only snatches GREEN creatures. Still possible, though.
Interestingly enough, the two Phyrexian Zenith cards aren't a good idea with the Myr Infinite Mana combo usually, since they either kill all creatures on the field, including your own, or summon a Green creature. The Mirran ones, however, all rule. Two are instant-speed (meaning INFINITE 2/2 Cats that can attack the next turn! :D), and can royally screw over an enemy, or infinite damage at Sorcery speed to auto-kill an enemy player. The Mirran Zenith cards are brilliantly epic with the Myr infinite mana, while the Phyrexian ones aren't.... That is the definition of "interesting" in Magic.
Anyway, this card isn't worth the infinite mana combo from Myrs by itself. It's essentially a Wrath of God that way, just in Black. Lif'e's Finale is better. Phyrexian Rebirth is better. I mean, yeah, this kills EVERYTHING. Guess what? Those two cards do it better. And they get an extra effect.
Note: Out of all of the Zenith cards, this has the second highest rating. Why? I mean, infinite mana + any Zenith boosts its rating, IMO, as long as the combo is good. This combo isn't.
Unfortunately, in straight removal, completely outclassed by Life's Finale and Damnation. Still fun though.
Hold my fear,
Till you all just disappear!
Black Hole Sun, won't you come...
since 0 toughness kills as a state based action, indestructibility doesn't work
it doesn't target, so things with protection aren't safe
it doesn't deal damage, so that's another way around protection, and damage prevention cards like vigor
with enough mana, it even kills emrakul, the aeons torn, though black isn't big on mana ramp
Let's say you're playing EDH and there is an Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre out and a Progenitus. This gets rid of them both. Sure, at a cost of
Second only to Apocalypse, but you don't have to discard, and you get to keep noncreature permanents. I can't remember if there is an "Exile all creatures" card in Magic. If there isn't, then Black Sun's Zenith is the most thorough.
Also, nothing feels better than drawing the hate of four other players with no creatures on the board to do anything about it.
-Geth, Lord of the Vault
"If a creature ever has +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters on it, the two kinds of counters immediately "cancel out," one for one, until only one kind of counter remains. For example, a creature with three +1/+1 counters and two -1/-1 counters would end up with one +1/+1 counter. There's a twist, though: If a creature with +1/+1 counters on it gets enough -1/-1 counters to kill it, it dies before the two counters have the chance to cancel out. For example, if your Strangleroot Geist with a +1/+1 counter on it got three -1/-1 counters from Skinrender's "enters the battlefield" ability, the Geist would die with one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters and wouldn't return to the battlefield."
From: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/177#1
The obvious competition is Day of Judgment, which is also in the deck. From face value, this just looks weaker. However, I've found that this does quite a few things that DoJ doesn't. It kills indestructible and regeneration, obviously, but it's uses aren't limited to just that. It goes back into your deck, which means that if you really need it again, you have a chance to find it. Also, you can continue to add pressure to the board by putting out big creatures, forcing your opponent to play into it more, and then kill all their creatures while only wounding your own.
Of course, it doesn't match up well against big creatures, or at least not as well as Doj, which will always cost 4 for a wrath. That definitely is a big weakness. However, I find that my counter/spot removal suite does a good job of answering them, allowing me to save this for their weaker creatures. It's not good against every deck, but then again, what control spell is?
Shroud? Yes
Protection from Black? Yes
Indestructible? Triple Yes.
Good thing it's not easily splashable.
By the way Totema, nobody plays Melira. Your argument is invalid.
And by rain, I mean W tokens
Continuing to look into the mechanics, I was thinking: because in non-dying circumstances or initial circumstances where: “the two kinds of counters immediately cancel out”, I assumed that the same “immediate” resolution would be applied to circumstances where the -1/-1 are greater than the amount of +1/+1 and cre’s actual toughness. But the info seems to supports that any moment a creature has 0 or less life it’s like it heads to the graveyard and the rest of the stack of stuff happening with the creature (if there is any on its stack) ceases to deal with the creature, although stuff on its stack may still trigger other things, it will not do any immediate stuff to that creature since the creature is now considered not on the playing field but in or on the way to the graveyard. Which I then assume is the reason why the death of the cre can send it to the graveyard with both – and + counters on it.
I would have thought that if a cre has 2 +1/+1 counters and 1 toughness for a total of 3 toughness, and you give that cre 3 -1/-1 counters, the 3 -1/-1 counters would eat-up the 2 -1/-1 counters, leaving 1 -1/-1 counter left which then eats-up the cre’s remaining 1 toughness, but apparently this is not the case.
I’m sure there’s even more ways to elaborate on exactly what’s happening with the mechanics of the effect and resolution.
I’m then figuring if a 1/1 cre with 2 +1/+1 counters on it gets hit with a Lightning Bolt, the cre dies and goes to the graveyard with its 2 +1/+1 counters, etc
but if that 1/1 cre with 2 +1/+1 counters gets targeted with 3 -1/-1 counters, it goes to the graveyard with both the 3 -1/-1 counters and the 2 +1/+1 counters it originally had?? (it dies before the different counters have a chance to cancel out).
Black Sun's Sweeper {3}{B}{B}
Sorcery Rare
Put X -1/-1 counters on each creature, where X is the highest toughness among those creatures.
Hey, it'd be overpowered, but it would also be a better answer to Thrun.
Completely untrue. Indestructible prevents all forms of "destroy" effects, targeted or not. This includes destruction via damage as well. Reducing the toughness of an indestructible card to zero or exiling them are the most common/reliable way of getting rid of them.
The reminder text for indestructible states:
"(Effects that say "destroy" don't destroy that permanent. An indestructible creature can't be destroyed by damage.)"
Nowhere in there is anything about targeting mentioned.
As a result, this card (Black Sun's Zenith) is in fact quite useful for removing indestructible creatures, particularly if your opponent has found a way to add hexproof/shroud to said indestructible creature(s).
You see the black sun rising above a Vault of Whispers here.
Stupid Phyrexians.
Also, this is the only wrath that can kill indestructible creatures, contrary to stupid Xineombine who is an outlay a n00b who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. And don't try to loophole that statement be saying exile-wraths can kill indestructible too, because I said kill, not remove.
If it dose not kill a creature it weakens them bad.
"Can Black Sun's Zenith kill Grim Poppet?"
I just made an account to see if I could answer this. Tried to post already, and it didn't show up, so i'm sorry if this is a double post.
As long as the caster pays 4 for the x, grim poppet will die, and here's why:
Assuming grim poppet has 3 counters, its controller can respond to black sun's zenith by activating its ability 3 times, making its power/toughness = 4/4.
Then, black sun's zenith will resolve, adding four -1/-1 counters to grim poppet, and it's not possible to respond during the resolution of the spell (for example, even if black sun's zenith said "if x is at least 1, then add a -1/-1 counter to all creatures, then repeat this process for every mana paid for x past 1," you still couldn't activate grim poppet in between those additions).
(I think that both wordings would always have exactly the same outcome, does a more knowledgeable user know if that's true?)
At the end of the spell, the "game state" gets checked before players can respond, and grim poppet has 4 counters and 0 toughness, so it's legally dead and goes to the graveyard. I have heard this called a 'state-based effect', which may be helpful to you for future reference.
Unfortunately for the controller of grim poppet, he doesn't get to remove those counters before they kill it. Fortunately, however, as long as x is 3 or less, grim poppet can live through it (and end up with more 'ammo' too).
I hope that helped, and if anybody can see an error I made, let me know :)
A complete shoe in for any Dimir or Esper control deck in casual Modern or EDH. Playing 4 means you'll more than likely be wiping the board over and over.