Pointed Discussion

Why? That's all I'm asking...As if I needed another reason to hate wither

This card is ridiculously awesome. Regeneration and Indestructibility mean nothing and Protection is just glorified Unblockability (which isn't a word).

I play with a white deck and this is just so devastating...

I'm with you Ziqallx
Looking at this card... makes me want to cry.

Hell yeah, die white, DIE!

OH GOD! DISENCHANT! DISENCHANT! GO AWAY!

Cool name + fearsome abilities = great card

flavor text on this one should just say "Aww crap..." Cuz that's what people usually say when this hits the board lol, at least the white decks do lol

@ Ziquallx & Zyant

I play Black and Red, and I love this. White life gain is so annoying. I use this or Rain of Gore.

why does white hate this card? this + Transcendence = epicwin

i play with a white deck and i'm 12 and wat is this?

Regrettably, I got the Japanese version of this card...And my friends don't believe me when I say its ability, which is funny, because the very SOUND of it makes them nod in disbelief.

ANYWAYS, Damage cannot be prevented, players can't gain life, and everything has wither...fun, right??? Also, since nearly nobody I know of carries Disenchants and Demystifys, so it's safe to assume, that this enchantment will be safe, for white life-gaining decks.

ALSO What's not to love??? This means that the Ajanis abilities only work as Lightning Bolts and not as Lightning Helix.

d^-^b

@ Gezus82 (11/29/2009 9:37:39 PM
LMFAO That combo is freakin' awesome!!



Haha awesome this means White knight can DIE when blocking a black creature:
The "damage can't be prevented" statement overrides all forms of preventing damage, including protection abilities. Damage prevention spells and abilities can still be cast and played; they just don't do anything.

Freaking SWEET!
The card for any dragon/ demon theme deck to get around Baneslayer!



@ Ziquallx
&
@Zyant

... You guys make it sound as if you only play White and/or Green...
If you do I am a little surprised actually; I mean I have my perfered colors (That being Black or White, though playing them together is fun too!) But given each color has cards making it possibly a fun color to play I actually play with each. Actaully almost figured everyone does... lol.
I have to ask while thinking about white & green with all that gain life... Doesn't the life gain thing get boring/ dull?? Personally to me never seemed like a even remotely interesting deck theme stratagy...
(Except with vampires, BLOOD TRIBUTE and SENGUIN BOND... Which Everlasting Torment nurfs this game ending combo...)

Freakin' awesome card, Def. a must for any necroskitter deck !!!

@ Gezus82:
I don't think Transcendence works with this card. Transcendence has players gain 2 life for each 1 life they lost, but this card prevents players from gaining life. So no one can lose or gain life in a game. So that combo won't work unless a stalemate is what you are hoping for.

Fun card, volcanic fallout becomes especially brutal, if I have any complaints about it is that there doesn't seem to be many ways to make it one sided. Heartmender can remove counters, but will probably die anyways if everythings taking wither damage. Even creatures with damage prevention abilities wont be able to bypass it due to the clause on the enchantment. Has a lot of potential for sure.

@ sarroth: Transcendence prevents you from losing, not anyone else, so the combo/synergy will work.

I so hate this card because i don't own even one. It is quite annoying and so powerful. I'd like to use it with powerstone minefield or something.

hahahahaaaaaa My friend runs like a white life gain/damage prevention weenie deck, like every single card is prevent next damage and under 2 toughness. Drana, this. HAHAHAAAAAAAA

Staggershock ftw?

I would love this card enormously if not for the everything wither, I don't like seeing my own creatures waste away.

I like Ferguson's art style, as to the card I know it's an excellent white hater, though white has good answers to enchantment's, while enchantment removal is rare in black and red, so white enchantments end up being more effective against red/black, than red/black ones to white.

Hello mr. cleric ima hit you for 1... I wanna prevent it... I THOUGHT WE AGREED YOUR IN EVERLASTING TORMENT!!!... right...

One of my top 10 favorite card ever.

I like card like this, affecting the entire game ("world enchantment"), affecting all players, but very well balanced.

Only thing: Since Everlasting Torment haves 3 different abilities, i think 1-B/R-B/R was more accurate to 2-B/R for his CmC.

Run this in a red/white deck with Lightmine field. Boom. Sit back and watch every big offensive they throw at you you die or wither away as you sit back and laugh as you cast burn after burn.

Now this is very interesting... the bottom effect states that it changes all damage dealt into wither, so, would that override creatures with infect?

If so, then this card has the potential to destroy any infect deck. No more poison counters, and both payers deal damage through -1/-1 counters.

Control player- Runed Halo, pro. from Demigod of Revenge go.
Smart aggro player- Everlasting Torment *troll face*
Control player- FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU

play with Tatterkite and win with your damage proof 2/1

Tatterkite Tatterkite Tatterkite

What will this do with Infect?

Does this overwrite the damage rules for infect?

This would not effect Infect. The source deals damage as though it had wither. If it has infect, it also has wither. Wither deals damage in -1/-1 to creatures, infect does poison to players. It's not changing anything, it's adding wither. Hopefully we get something that'll say no to Infect, but this isn't the answer. Sorry.

@ParaDox420: Sorry, try again.

This card does override infect. A source of damage with wither does not inflict poison counters on an opponent. This card changes ALL damage that would be dealt so that the damage is dealt as though it's from a source with wither. Thus, a creature with infect won't deal damage to players in the form of poison counters as long as this card is on the battlefield.

@Gomorrah: Sorry, try again.
Protection from something doesn't prevent damage. It reduces the damage to zero. So Runed Halo still keeps you safe from Demigod of Revenge.

@cathode01

Protection
502.7e - Any damage that would be dealt by sources that have the stated quality to a permanent that has protection is prevented.
Ruling of Everlasting Torment
5/1/2008 - The "damage can't be prevented" statement overrides all forms of preventing damage, including protection abilities. Damage prevention spells and abilities can still be cast and played; they just don't do anything.

So . . What were you saying about Protection? Doesn't prevent damage or something?

I love this card. Mono red deck, This, plus Pyrohemia, plus burn, plus Leyline of Punishment just in case, and Hidetsugu's Second Rite as a finisher. Its actually funny to flash Hidetsugu's from your hand and watch your opponent scramble to deal damage to themselves to avoid being on 10 life. And then they realize theyre helping you anyways when you hit them with spark elementals and the ball lightnings. Evil is Awesome.

i'm fairly sure this does override infect, damage is dealt as if the source has wither, it does not actually give them wither, so its not a redundancy, its a replacement.

@cathode01 etc.:
Wither and Infect are replacement effects. Wither replaces the act of dealing damage to creatures and Infect both the acts of dealing damage to creatures and to players.

If a creature with Infect and this are on the battlefield, if said creature deals damage to an opponent, the act of dealing damage will just be replaced with that player receiving poison counters.
If it were to deal damage to a creature, both Infect and Wither would try to replace that act. The controller of the creature will be the one to choose which one goes first. Not that it matters.

And as for Protection from , protection prevents damage as well. This specific part of it is overridden by this card.

How does this card interact with Melira, Sylvok Outcast? Would her second ability be considered damage reduction in this case?

@helluin

Melira, Sylvok Outcast would stop -1/-1 counters from being placed on creatures, regardless of the source or ability. Thus if you control Melira, the -1/-1 counters from Wither cannot be placed on your creatures. This does not count as the damage being prevented; it's still dealt, but it has no effect.

This card turned my aggro bloodthirst/proliferate deck into a monster. Since damage is dealt in the form of counters, I can simply proliferate repeatedly to regenerate my own creatures, while wasting away (all) my opponent's without much of any risk to myself.

Oh, and then it doesn't let them regenerate, so any creatures/spells using phyrexian mana and life regen together (I'm looking at you, moltensteel) is effectively countered. And it can be easily dropped on Turn 3.

True it's vulnerable to removal... but that doesn't outweigh its benefits. It's a darn good card.

@cathode01
"@ParaDox420: Sorry, try again.

This card does override infect. A source of damage with wither does not inflict poison counters on an opponent. This card changes ALL damage that would be dealt so that the damage is dealt as though it's from a source with wither. Thus, a creature with infect won't deal damage to players in the form of poison counters as long as this card is on the battlefield.

@Gomorrah: Sorry, try again.
Protection from something doesn't prevent damage. It reduces the damage to zero. So Runed Halo still keeps you safe from Demigod of Revenge."

Little boys should stick to spears and throwing rocks.

"702.15e Any damage that would be dealt by sources that have the stated quality to a permanent or player with protection is prevented."

The damage is prevented, not 'reduced to zero' that's idiotic. However, Runed Halo still does protect from being dealt damage from whatever you name, since all damage from the named card will prevented.

Here's the rules, you can read them if you want to learn how to really play and not with your fairy tale rules.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules/MagicCompRules_20110715.txt

Also, "119.3d Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither and/or infect causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature."

This card, Everlasting Torment does nothing to infect creatures, and that's pretty obvious by what it says on the card.

"as though it had Wither" meaning it doesn't have wither, damage that would be dealt creature to creature (like it said in the reminder text, "damage to creatures") isn't and instead its -1/-1

That doesn't change Infect at all, from creature to creature, it doesn't give it wither, but if it did, it still wouldn't change the card, and its all pretty moot, since it doesn't get rid of infect. For infect creatures, against other creatures, it could say " " since it doesn't do anything.

Now that I'm done with that, its important how it works with infect and players.

Oh yeah, it doesn't Sorry, try again.
It says right on the card that "it would deal damage to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters" once again:
If it added wither, which it doesn't, it wouldn't change anything, that wither doesn't interact with players life totals, it also doesn't remove infect, because it doesn't say it does, but it doesn't even add wither, it just replaces the damage and makes it -1/-1 on creatures.

Better, try again, maybe you should learn to read the card next time, and cite rules.

@ helluin

While I'm at it, CJM2 answered your question perfectly, nothing else to add.

Would anyone mind telling me how wither would interact with trample or deathtouch?

I.E can you assign enough -1/-1 counters to a creature to destroy it, then assign the rest of the damage to the player? (trample/wither)

Or can you just assign one -1/-1 counter to a creature to kill it? (deathtouch/wither)

Still not sure about the interaction with infect though from reading the comments.

This card is great. I play it with Pyrohemia and Tatterkite. The Tatterkite watches while everything burns in wither counters haha and the Pyrohemia doesn't die. Just use it to kill your opponent by changing the difference with the Tatterkites!

this plus the undying mechanic will be freaking sweet. when the creature gets damaged it will lose its +1 counter which will reactivate the undying allowing him to come back. undying creatures will never die again except to non damage removal.

Works so well with Kulrath Knight

Oh, C'mon! Ankh Of Mishra damage as Wither? DINGUS EGG damage as wither? Flameblast Dragon?

Wow, ICEFANG13 is really condescending for someone who doesn't actually know the facts.

Interaction with Infect:

Let's say I have Everlasting Torment out, and my opponent attacks me with Blightsteel Colossus.

If I don't block it, I take 11 poison counters and die. This is because Wither doesn't specifically say "Deals normal damage to players", it only specifies that it does damage in the form of -1/-1 counters to creatures. Therefore, there is no conflict between Infect's poison-damage and Everlasting Torment's wither-effect.

Also, in the interaction with Runed Halo, he seems to have missed the "Damage can't be prevented." on the big card image at the top of the screen. Maybe a vision-check is in order?

So to be clear, Runed Halo would still prevent you from being enchanted or targeted by the card you chose, but it won't stop the damage.

@ICEFANG13
In the infinite, lonely depths of your ignorance I hope you find some form of solace. Because I sure don't.

Cyclops Gladiator can be neat here. Any creature with 4 or less power will end up dealing 0 back to him; meaning their wither effect doesn't even matter.

Also consider suicidal creatures like Hellspark and Keldon Marauders

So WAIT just a fricking second. o.O

Worldslayer
Avacyn
Lich
Stoneforge Mystic
(yes that really is Lich + Worldslayer)
Gisela
Solitary Confinement
Demonic Tutor
Idyllic Tutor

...were ALREADY must-haves for my Kaalia of the Vast EDH Deck

NOW you tell me
Transcendence
Form of the Dragon
Nefarious Lich
Stigma Lasher
Sanguine Bond
Everlasting Torment
Rain of Gore
and Vizkopa Guildmage

are ALL ALSO in Kaalia's Colors as well?! o.o

For being such a Theoretically Timmy card, Kaalia is really being told by Vorthos hard to go Deck Artist Johnny >__<

Many of these cards have links to Yet Moar Stupid Combos. It's because these 3 colors are the best for Synergistic Enchantments I think. Maybe. You can set a lot of "New Rule: I Am Now A Dick" cards down, lol.

Type your comment here.

I don't understand the flavor text. I'm sure its a reference to something in a book or whatever, but reading the sentence alone makes no sense. I think it should read, "When night falls,". Am I wrong here?

"When night fell," its not referencing some kind of special event, because it didn't use the term the night. Even then, would sound like a normal night on the surface unless you looked deeper. As is, it sounds like an ordinary nightfall.

"the plane itself was scarred". So I guess every nightfall, the plane gets a permanent scar from everlasting torment? Which leads me to believe the plane has a very long day cycle.

"I don't understand the flavor text. I'm sure its a reference to something in a book or whatever, but reading the sentence alone makes no sense. I think it should read, "When night falls,". Am I wrong here?

"When night fell," its not referencing some kind of special event, because it didn't use the term the night. Even then, would sound like a normal night on the surface unless you looked deeper. As is, it sounds like an ordinary nightfall.

"the plane itself was scarred". So I guess every nightfall, the plane gets a permanent scar from everlasting torment? Which leads me to believe the plane has a very long day cycle."

It's a reference to the complete inversion from Lorwyn turning into Shadowmoor. Oona, Queen of the Fae caused the plane to have century-long days and nights of equal length. During the night, the plane is inverted: creatures become the worst possible versions of themselves, with some of them vanishing completely. Everything (except the Faeries who, protected by Oona's magic, were untouched by the Great Aurora) forgot there was a daytime at all, let alone what it was like. While Lorwyn was an idyllic paradise where the sun never set, Shadowmoor was a nightmarish realm of death and paranoia.

Hence the flavor text.

Finally the undying truly never die!

Geralf's Messenger
Hound of Griselbrand
pyreheart wolf

Well except to exile and kill spells after having died once... but I'm not going to be so picky

Love this card. Terrifies People. People can't believe it only costs 3 cmc.

Red/Black seems to be on top of global enchantments currently for 2-3 mana.
Curse of the Pierced Heart
Sulfuric Vortex
Seal of Fire
Seal of Doom
Pain Magnification
Toss them in a deck, back up with standard burn.
Villain Deck.

Also, last ruling:

"Wither happens everywhere."
Should have been the flavor text.

I haven't seen anyone mention these potential combos. I run a deck in mostly multiplayer format, and Bonfire of the Damned does a great job removing/weakening my opponent's creatures while leaving me unscathed.

I also like Circle of Flame as it's cheap, works to deter early-game weenies, and can start to look super intimidating with ET on the board. In the same vein, Electrickery, when overloaded for a measly gets you tokens on each creature you don't control.

Now think about how powerful that is with Kulrath Knight and Necroskitter hanging out. Add in a Blowfly Infestation, a few Fate Transfer, and no creatures can really stop you. Of course, Black Sun's Zenith can get the counters going earlier or when you just need more of them.

If you get this combo off, which it is entirely feasible to do in MP, you can be stealing all your opponent's creatures (and thus their synergy) and beating them down with it. The real problem is going against spell decks.

If it were mono it would have been perfect for my Niv-Mizzet EDH deck... Unluckly, it doesn't!
However, a great card!

4/5

This + Kulrath Knight + Scouring Sands*... Oooh yeah.

*Overloaded Electrickery works too.