Awww, Wizards, you kindly folks you. I was just updating my Riku Commander deck, and you go and print this. I would love getting a Past in Flames off on this as well, both to reuse anything already in the graveyard (mana allowing), and so that all those lovely spells I just spat out can be cast again later. Including Epic Experiment.
SyntheticDreamer
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
It's pseudo-Storm in Standard! And this provides a really useful boost to real Storm decks, too...
thisisnotmyname
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
Let's blow up the world! Nice to have a semi fixed mind's desire in modern.
Ferlord
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(3 votes)
I'd say Genesis Wave is better because you can get artifacts, enchantments, lands, creatures and Planeswalkers out, while this just gets you instants and sorceries.
Mind you, it's not strictly worse (in any way), because if you've structured to have only instants and sorceries, then this overpowers Genesis Wave almost immediately.
Also, is kind of hard to get unless going mono.
infernox10
★★★★☆ (4.9/5.0)(4 votes)
Gen-Izzet Wave.
djflo
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
Super, super well made card. It takes some wacky stuff to make this powerful enough, but if it's good, it's going to be great.
Pros like me will be using this to cast lots of free overloads.
DarthParallax
★★☆☆☆ (2.8/5.0)(2 votes)
X.X
Right, I'm gonna actually get real hate-mail from judges now because of that Knowledge Pool deck and because people will actually HAVE these, unlike Mind's Desire, so judges will actually have to go to tables where some Wise Guy just couldn't NOT press that BIG, SHINY, BUTTON LABELLED ''DO NOT BLOW UP THE WORLD''.
The Izzet's answer to Genesis Wave. My mind is boggling with the possibilities! I definitely would have one (or both?) of their guildmages to help, though!
@Lotsofpoopy: No, you cannot use this to get free Overloads. A real "pro" would know the rules of the game. Overload is an alternate cost, and this card only permits you to pay the mana cost for free. Either you play the single-target version or you pitch it into the grave. Additional costs, like kickers or buyback, are a different story however.
majinara
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Well, it is obviously worse than Genesis wave, since the wave will in general hit more permanents than this will hit sorceries and instants, for the fact of lands being permanents alone.
Another problem is that, if you play a red blue deck, you will most likely play a control deck. That means that you will run counterspells. And counterspells revealed this way will of course be useless as well.
That being said, it's still a cute card. Fun for some Commander decks that are light on permanents.
DoragonShinzui
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Irritatingly, doesn't combo with Overload. Still tons of fun, and a Genesis Wave for Izzet is very cool, but given that it doesn't combo with their major mechanic...Bleh.
TraRobins
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
I SO want this card. It's so amazing. It probably won't do well in Standard, but in EDH, it's hilarious.
Mode
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
The only pity is that it bomboes with itself.
RAV0004
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
We have Man-lands, and Artifact Creatures, and Artifact Lands, and Instants that make creature tokens.
I'd say it's about time to print some Instant/Sorcery lands. Screw the rules, I'm Izzet.
God_Of_The_Smurfs
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
It seems like everyone just goes ballistic when they see this. But it's really just a genesis wave for instants and sorceries, and genesis wave didn't see any play either.
Cool card, definitively seeing some people run this in Modern just because they can. Manamorphose, Pyretic Ritual, Past in Flames etc... Won't be a top deck I don't think but still be fun to see anyways.
Radagast
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Wheee!!! A card begging for abuse with combos, and it's just so flavorful, too!
Skiefyre
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
So wait... i can cast a worldfire with a sizzle on the back side of it. O.o
Purplerooster
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
Ah man, the "x" makes it so you can't epic experiment an epic experiment.
alzabo
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Nivmagus Elemental will gladly take those unwanted counterspells off your hands.
supafly13
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
@oj48. I agree. Those two along w MasterofEtherium shouldn't be allowed to post any longer. With that being said, this card has potential as likely a storm engine in a shell similar to Belcher I feel. It will be interesting to see who can be the first to harness its power.
Cyber_Squirrel
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
@PurpleRooster Yes, but you can copy it with reverberate or chandra, the firebrand, then if the copy hits another reverberate you can use that to copy the original again... You'd need quite a bit of luck (and mana) to pull that off, but it could be fairly spectacular.
PyRaTeZ
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Does this put the spells you did cast into the graveyard, i know it puts all spells you didnt cast into the graveyard and spells are meant to go into the GY when they are cast but i wanted to make sure before i added psychic spirals to attempt an infinite storm :p
Haelthor
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
I play 2 of them in my URW deck. With Chandra and Talrand in play I copy a 5 or 6 X experiment and burn their field and filling my skies with fliers (I like to call them "birds"). They usually concede that turn, unless they can top deck a Terminus. Its a pretty flashy way to win, especially after durdling for the first 6 or 7 turns :(
I know what Mindbreak Trap's having for dinner tonight...
deep_shadow
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
It's a turn 1 win condition for epic storm. 5/5
SickTrick
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(1 vote)
I have looked over the rules and from what I have read it would seem if you Epic Experiment into Reverberate you would be able to copy the Epic Experiment used to draw Reverberate. If I am wrong please let me know but here is my reasoning.
Rule 608 outlines Resolving Spells and Abilities. 608.2f states:
"If an effect gives a player the option to pay mana, he or she may activate mana abilities before taking that action. If an effect specifically instructs or allows a player to cast a spell during resolution, he or she does so by putting that spell on top of the stack, then continuing to cast it by following the steps in rules 601.2a-h, except no player receives priority after it's cast. The currently resolving spell or ability then continues to resolve, which may include casting other spells this way. No other spells can normally be cast and no other abilities can normally be activated during resolution."
It states "if an effect specifically instructs or allows a player to cast a spell during resolution, he or she does so by putting that spell on top of the stack, then continuing to cast it by following the steps in rules 601.2a-h, except no player recieves priority after it's cast." This along with the card text, "you may cast that card without paying its mana cost", allows the player to cast the Reverberate during the resolution of Epic Experiment. This would add all spells cast during Epic Experiment onto the stack above Epic Experiment.
In section 405.5 it states "When all players pass in succession, the top (last-added) spell or ability on the stack resolves. If the stack is empty when all players pass, the current step or phase ends and the next begins." Epic Experiment has not left the stack at this point because 608.2k is the last part of resolution and has not taken affect. 608.2k states when a spell leaves the stack and is 608.2k is done last based on rule 608.2. This leaves Epic Experiment open as a target during the resolving of Reverberate because reverberate is higher on the stack than Epic Experiment. After Reverberate or the last spell on the stack above Epic Experiment resolves Epic Experiment takes priority allowing the cards exiled to return to the graveyard of the player.
TheShadow344
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
@SickTrick If you Epic Experiment into Reverberate you can cast Reverberate targeting the experiment, but when it resolves the experiment will already be in the graveyard (Epic Experiment needs to finish resolving and will be put in the graveyard before the other spells can be cast) and Reverberate will be countered and not create a copy.
See http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=446884 or http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29485383/Epic_ExperimentReverberate
I am guessing that it would not trigger, as it is exiled first and then put into the graveyard, rather than actually going from your library to your graveyard. Correct?
So someone pointed out to me, this works quite well with a copy instant (or a few), as well as some spell or ability to shuffle your graveyard when you need to (including an Emmy in your deck can work for this purpose; including a singleton Temporal Cascade can also work, though when you use it it'll strip you and your opponent of your hands - though you can easily rebuild with experiment).
But in any case, you cast a decent sized experiment (my latest one was an X=8 powered by three Seething Songs), and then copy it with your copy instant. Hopefully, your copy can flip over into other copy spells, which you can then use to copy the original. Continue until you miss a copy spell, or your opponent is dead. Works even better with an active Pyromancer Ascension, as your copies get copied, and all your other casts get copied.
As a result of that X=8 I think I ended up getting about 4 or 5 X=8 Experiment casts off, and ultimately got around 4 or 5 extra turns off of Time Warps. In those 4 or 5 turns I got a Pyromancer Ascension online, cast another Time Warp for an extra 2 turns, and ultimately finished off my opponent (who was on 9 life) with a Fire/Ice and 2 Reverberates, all copied by Pyromancer Ascension.
Sure, it's a solitaire Magic style of playing, but the Johnny-tastic power when it goes off is simply delicious. :-3
hot4boys
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(1 vote)
THE LE REDDIT MEME ARMY LEEJUN LOVES THIS CARD! 5 STARS IF YOU AGREE LOL XD!
Alright, so either I just Johnnied hugely or I'm still n00bish (probably the latter). Quick question: if I use this and reveal a Reverberate or an Increasing Vengeance, can I copy the Experiment with them because it's on the stack?
Odee
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Can you choose the order that spells drawn by epic experiment get cast or is it a case of play it as you draw it?
Who cares? Now that cipher is in the mix the exile part means exactly dick.
MindAblaze
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
@ Defectivedeity
No, because the copy spells don't technically hit the stack until epic experiment has finished resolving.
OK this has been driving me NUTS. I friggen love this card, but I am confused about what happens when I turn up a split card. The official ruling says
"In every zone except the stack, split cards have two sets of characteristics and two converted mana costs. If anything needs information about a split card not on the stack, it will get two values."
But at the same time when I use Blast of Genius I get to use the total converted mana cost.
So if I use this and a split card comes up, does the total CMC come into play, or is it for each individual side and I just happen to have two spells on one card?
Basically I'm asking; Do I get to have my cake and eat it too?
Okuu-chan
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
@Mr.Whatever: Split cards are strange, but here's how it works: 1. As long as one half of the Split card meets the criteria (say, you did an Epic Experiment for 2 and you turned up Turn/Burn), Epic Experiment can cast it. 2. You can cast either half, even the other half doesn't meet the requirements. It's the same reason why you can cast Turn-Burn off Isochron Scepter even though Turn has CMC 3 and thus doesn't meet the "CMC 2 or less" requirement, since the scepter reads the card's CMC as BOTH 2 and 3. The same is true for Epic Experiment.
You get to choose one half to cast (not both). Casting both spells is what Fuse is for, and it only works from the hand.
ProsperoNight
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
@Continue: "Melek loves his experiments."
This won't actually make anything cast double. The spells are being cast from exile, not from the library.
gatorjunkie
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
This card is nuts if you cast it off of an activated Pyromancer Ascension. Not only do you get to cast Epic Experiment twice, but you also get to cast each exiled instant or sorcery twice. It is epic.
Megadog
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Must make a U/R/G deck with this, Genesis Wave and Tamiyo in it. If not just because it makes them into a worst case scenario of "XUR/XGGG, draw X cards. Return ~ to your hand."
Great in EDH, if you can get a large amount of mana (or infinite) then cast this where x is about 100, and you have ulamog or kozilek in your deck, and have a copy spell in hand, then u can cast every instant/sorcery in your deck, shuffle everything back into library, then repeat, ending with your graveyard back in your library. Although you should win with the first go.
Continue
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Melek loves his experiments.
@ProsperoNight: True, but he can double the Epic Experiment itself, which is just as good.
SirLibraryEater
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Does this continue to have a CMC of 2 if I cast it with X as more than 0? And does that mean that Izzet Guildmage can have a hand in some shenanigans?
Casimir_the_Great
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
@Mr.Whatever: I think, and don't hold me to this, but I'm pretty sure you get to do whatever you want as long as it's withing the mana cost. Overloads and stuff like that won't work (alternative mana costs), but if you've got 6 for X and get a Turn//Burn you could do both, but something like Catch//Release you'd have to choose.
Anyone reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Breaker_Ki
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
This is the corner stone of my Riku EDH deck. 8 creatures, 1 artifact, 1 enchantment, and a whole crap load of epic sorceries/instants.
However, I still don't fully understand the card. Say I exile X cards, and among them is a Timewarp and a Counterspell. Can my opponents respond to the Timewarp cast (and counter it) before Epic Experiment completely resolves? If so, can I use the counterspell to counter his counter? I used Bosiju on Epic Experiment
My understanding is that the spells go on the stack but do not start resolving until after Epic Experiment has resolved. Sadly this means that you can put your time warp on the stack, but your counterspell will not be able to target your opponent's counterspell. This is because their counterspell cannot be cast until after epic experiment has resolved (as you can't cast spells while a spell is resolving), and of course once your epic experiment has resolved you can't cast the counterspell anymore. I hope that helps.
Drewskithelegend
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
I want to build around this really really badly. Not the easiest thing to do, however. The best shell for a deck like this is a storm-type construction and that is a more competitive deck as it is.
@Mr_McPippens , NarfNra: that wouldn't work because the cards get exiled. Also unless you are just using it as a mill card, it doesn't work with spellheart chimera.
at0micpickle
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
5/5 for name alone
questionflanger
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
The first standard deck I ever made was 3 of these, 4 Guttersnipes and a whole lot of burn. Gets a 3/5 from me because I've ran it in an EDH deck with 50 instant/sorcery, typically cast it for 10+ and end up throwing 8 permanents in the graveyard. Infuriating. I guess that's Izzet for you.
Comments (65)
Mind you, it's not strictly worse (in any way), because if you've structured to have only instants and sorceries, then this overpowers Genesis Wave almost immediately.
Also,
Right, I'm gonna actually get real hate-mail from judges now because of that Knowledge Pool deck and because people will actually HAVE these, unlike Mind's Desire, so judges will actually have to go to tables where some Wise Guy just couldn't NOT press that BIG, SHINY, BUTTON LABELLED ''DO NOT BLOW UP THE WORLD''.
I LOVE the Izzet Guild!!!!!!!!!!!! ^_^
:P
@Lotsofpoopy: No, you cannot use this to get free Overloads. A real "pro" would know the rules of the game. Overload is an alternate cost, and this card only permits you to pay the mana cost for free. Either you play the single-target version or you pitch it into the grave. Additional costs, like kickers or buyback, are a different story however.
Another problem is that, if you play a red blue deck, you will most likely play a control deck. That means that you will run counterspells. And counterspells revealed this way will of course be useless as well.
That being said, it's still a cute card. Fun for some Commander decks that are light on permanents.
I'd say it's about time to print some Instant/Sorcery lands. Screw the rules, I'm Izzet.
Now that is an Epic Experiment!
With that being said, this card has potential as likely a storm engine in a shell similar to Belcher I feel. It will be interesting to see who can be the first to harness its power.
Yes, but you can copy it with reverberate or chandra, the firebrand, then if the copy hits another reverberate you can use that to copy the original again...
You'd need quite a bit of luck (and mana) to pull that off, but it could be fairly spectacular.
Rule 608 outlines Resolving Spells and Abilities. 608.2f states:
"If an effect gives a player the option to pay mana, he or she may activate mana abilities before taking that action. If an effect specifically instructs or allows a player to cast a spell during resolution, he or she does so by putting that spell on top of the stack, then continuing to cast it by following the steps in rules 601.2a-h, except no player receives priority after it's cast. The currently resolving spell or ability then continues to resolve, which may include casting other spells this way. No other spells can normally be cast and no other abilities can normally be activated during resolution."
It states "if an effect specifically instructs or allows a player to cast a spell during resolution, he or she does so by putting that spell on top of the stack, then continuing to cast it by following the steps in rules 601.2a-h, except no player recieves priority after it's cast." This along with the card text, "you may cast that card without paying its mana cost", allows the player to cast the Reverberate during the resolution of Epic Experiment. This would add all spells cast during Epic Experiment onto the stack above Epic Experiment.
In section 405.5 it states "When all players pass in succession, the top (last-added) spell or ability on the stack resolves. If the stack is empty when all players pass, the current step or phase ends and the next begins." Epic Experiment has not left the stack at this point because 608.2k is the last part of resolution and has not taken affect. 608.2k states when a spell leaves the stack and is 608.2k is done last based on rule 608.2. This leaves Epic Experiment open as a target during the resolving of Reverberate because reverberate is higher on the stack than Epic Experiment. After Reverberate or the last spell on the stack above Epic Experiment resolves Epic Experiment takes priority allowing the cards exiled to return to the graveyard of the player.
If you Epic Experiment into Reverberate you can cast Reverberate targeting the experiment, but when it resolves the experiment will already be in the graveyard (Epic Experiment needs to finish resolving and will be put in the graveyard before the other spells can be cast) and Reverberate will be countered and not create a copy.
See http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=446884 or http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29485383/Epic_ExperimentReverberate
I am guessing that it would not trigger, as it is exiled first and then put into the graveyard, rather than actually going from your library to your graveyard. Correct?
Combo'd with Freed from the Real?
You don't even need green...
.
.
.
Mind's Desire.
But in any case, you cast a decent sized experiment (my latest one was an X=8 powered by three Seething Songs), and then copy it with your copy instant. Hopefully, your copy can flip over into other copy spells, which you can then use to copy the original. Continue until you miss a copy spell, or your opponent is dead. Works even better with an active Pyromancer Ascension, as your copies get copied, and all your other casts get copied.
As a result of that X=8 I think I ended up getting about 4 or 5 X=8 Experiment casts off, and ultimately got around 4 or 5 extra turns off of Time Warps. In those 4 or 5 turns I got a Pyromancer Ascension online, cast another Time Warp for an extra 2 turns, and ultimately finished off my opponent (who was on 9 life) with a Fire/Ice and 2 Reverberates, all copied by Pyromancer Ascension.
Sure, it's a solitaire Magic style of playing, but the Johnny-tastic power when it goes off is simply delicious. :-3
Who cares? Now that cipher is in the mix the exile part means exactly dick.
No, because the copy spells don't technically hit the stack until epic experiment has finished resolving.
That being said...Hive Mind
"In every zone except the stack, split cards have two sets of characteristics and two converted mana costs. If anything needs information about a split card not on the stack, it will get two values."
But at the same time when I use Blast of Genius I get to use the total converted mana cost.
So if I use this and a split card comes up, does the total CMC come into play, or is it for each individual side and I just happen to have two spells on one card?
Basically I'm asking; Do I get to have my cake and eat it too?
Split cards are strange, but here's how it works:
1. As long as one half of the Split card meets the criteria (say, you did an Epic Experiment for 2 and you turned up Turn/Burn), Epic Experiment can cast it.
2. You can cast either half, even the other half doesn't meet the requirements. It's the same reason why you can cast Turn-Burn off Isochron Scepter even though Turn has CMC 3 and thus doesn't meet the "CMC 2 or less" requirement, since the scepter reads the card's CMC as BOTH 2 and 3. The same is true for Epic Experiment.
You get to choose one half to cast (not both). Casting both spells is what Fuse is for, and it only works from the hand.
This won't actually make anything cast double. The spells are being cast from exile, not from the library.
@ProsperoNight: True, but he can double the Epic Experiment itself, which is just as good.
And does that mean that Izzet Guildmage can have a hand in some shenanigans?
Anyone reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong.
However, I still don't fully understand the card. Say I exile X cards, and among them is a Timewarp and a Counterspell. Can my opponents respond to the Timewarp cast (and counter it) before Epic Experiment completely resolves? If so, can I use the counterspell to counter his counter? I used Bosiju on Epic Experiment
My understanding is that the spells go on the stack but do not start resolving until after Epic Experiment has resolved. Sadly this means that you can put your time warp on the stack, but your counterspell will not be able to target your opponent's counterspell. This is because their counterspell cannot be cast until after epic experiment has resolved (as you can't cast spells while a spell is resolving), and of course once your epic experiment has resolved you can't cast the counterspell anymore. I hope that helps.
@Mr_McPippens , NarfNra: that wouldn't work because the cards get exiled. Also unless you are just using it as a mill card, it doesn't work with spellheart chimera.