Pretty much better then Megrim although I do agree with this power creep I think discard deck deserved it at 2 and not 3 especially with Mind Rot right after
Megrim will be remembered, but discarding now has a stronger incentive.
Temple_Garden
★★★☆☆ (3.7/5.0)(3 votes)
Megrim might cost more but there are some situations where damage is more valuable than life loss, so it could still have a place. As if discarding isn't painful enough.
Belz_
★★★☆☆ (3.3/5.0)(3 votes)
Goodbye Megrim. This makes discard-damage more viable, where otherwise it might've been meh.
I agree with this. Megrim was too akward to work with.
ThadeGelna
★★★★☆ (4.8/5.0)(8 votes)
So not only cheaper to cast than megrim, but it causes loss of life instead of damage. Unreal. Obtain a play set ASAP. If you don't want it, one of your friends will.
HairlessThoctar
★★★★☆ (4.2/5.0)(6 votes)
This isn't in fact a strictly better Megrim; Megrim caused damage whereas this causes life loss. An important distinction in most cases, but in any deck that would play either card, non-existent.
This is a better Megrim.
don_miguel
★★☆☆☆ (2.8/5.0)(3 votes)
unfortunately they replaced the glorious hpnotic with that stupid new specter
lorendorky
★★★★☆ (4.2/5.0)(3 votes)
Turn 1 duress turn 2 caress turn 3 liliana's specter will be a respectable first couple of turns against most decks. If you can mind sludge turn 5, then drop liliana vess turn 6 it would be nasssty.
mutantman
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(2 votes)
Sure, Megrim was always consistently popular, and this is sooo much better in every way. Art is way better. Flavor is also way better---Liliana is awesome vs. what the hell does "Megrim" mean? Fits better in the color pie because life loss > damage for a black card. Fits better into discard decks because unlike Megrim, it's actually possible to cast it before you cast your discard spells. (Megrim and Mind Rot both cost 3...awkward much?) And obviously it's more powerful. And everything about it just feels better.
It's clearly not a powerful card by any means, but it's a well-designed card and a smash hit for its target audience. I approve!
Paleopaladin
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(1 vote)
LOVE the art! It captures the essence of Liliana's looks perfectly: Beautiful, in an "I'm-ready-to-wet-my-pants-in-abject-horror" sort of way.
Studoku
★★★★☆ (4.0/5.0)(4 votes)
A better and slightly kinky megrim.
Selez
★★★★☆ (4.2/5.0)(2 votes)
Megrim and its many variations were never very good, but this is friggin broken. I understand how the color pie demanded a change to life loss, but that really makes it even better. No more pro black for you!! I'd anticipate a very good discard deck in the future, if it weren't for goshdarned Vengevine and newcomer Obstinate Baloth.
However, in casual, this will rule. The two-dropness of this will make such a difference; you can curve into blightning, liliana's new specter or somewhat-oldie wistful thinking wihtout really losing a turn.
Dr.Pingas
★★★★☆ (4.0/5.0)(1 vote)
Not bad, but it lacks the "megrim-pain magnification-furnace of rath" feel to it. Still makes discard, an already annoying concept, and makes it retarded. Bleh... Why can't magic make cool new cards instead of taking old ones and breaking them?
B_Quad
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Does this card trigger on instances of discard, or cards discarded? For example, if I play Mind Rot and use Liliana Vess's +1 ability in the same turn with Liliana's Caress in play, does my opponent lose 4 life (two instances of discarding), or 6 life (3 cards discarded)? I'm assuming the former, since Ajani's Packmate seems to have a similar mechanic, and it explicitly explains that it triggers on instances of lifegain, not amount of lifegain.
HzUnder20
★★★☆☆ (3.0/5.0)(2 votes)
In Legacy they call it:
Turn 1- Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sol Ring, Caress, Caress
Turn 2- Island, Wheel and Deal / Windfall. Typically if there are no counters (FOW), Win.
Damage is never more valuable than life loss unless you're comboing with something like Furnace of Rath, but that is just awkward in discard.
Much better:
1) Dark Ritual, Liliana's Caress, Duress (2 lost life, 18)
2) Any discard spell, a second Caress, whatever. Since we started with an excellent opening hand already, let's be optimistic and plop down a second Caress.
3) Blightning. 3 damage, then two discards, 4 lost life for each. (11 lost life, 7)
4) Mind Rot. gg.
Megrim, clunky and preventable, would never have been able to do this (or would have required a hand picked out by the gods themselves, rather than just a very good opening hand). It's amazing how less can make a card go from "rofl, is this guy seriously trying to play Megrim against my faeries?" to "Oh. Oh my, this might get out of hand really fast."
Entropic_Acolyte
★★★★☆ (4.8/5.0)(4 votes)
There's one reason that Megrim is better than this- my friends may hate my blue/black Megrim deck (which demolishes through any number of opponents in multiplayer) but they would never allow me to play said deck with four of this instead... do you want the world to hate you on turn two, or three? In a one-on-one, though, there is no doubt that this card is superior.
iNathan
★★★★☆ (4.2/5.0)(2 votes)
very good card, what makes it especially awsome is that it has to do with Liliana Vess
No creatures in main deck. Back to Nature, Naturalize, War Priest of Thune and others of his Ilk are my main opposition, however the one card that completely shuts this kind of deck down is:
Well. Megrim could harm planeswalkers, so it has to go. I never really liked the megrim. Plain damage for discard felt like people didn't understand the real value of discard. And this card isn't much better. The cmc2 slot should be used for discard spells instead,
So my version would have been a Leyline.
Diachronos
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Liliana's Caress, Megrim, and Bloodchief Ascension would work amazingly together. Losing 6 life every time you discard is going to add up pretty fast.
Latronis
★★☆☆☆ (2.5/5.0)(1 vote)
Flat out terrible.
Better megrim is still just crappy megrim
KarmasPayment
★★★★☆ (4.0/5.0)(4 votes)
"In Legacy they call it: Turn 1- Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sol Ring, Caress, Caress Turn 2- Island, Wheel and Deal / Windfall. Typically if there are no counters (FOW), Win." HzUnder20
Makes me wonder how many game losses you've incurred.
Pretty straightforward; the creatures can be changed around to your liking. That's just what I had to work with.
Happy Summoning, my friends.
Aradimar
★★★★☆ (4.2/5.0)(2 votes)
@HzUnder20 sol ring is banned in legacy :P, but anyways great card, soo much better then megrim
Aen3ma
★★☆☆☆ (2.8/5.0)(2 votes)
its an improvement on megrim i guess, but it still falls to the problem that ANY time i would play this card in a discard deck i would much rather be just casting a hymn to tourach or something similar... playing this on turn 2 just gives your opponent the chance to play those 2 or 3 drops that you want to take out of their hand early.
this card does nothing to affect neither the board nor their hand... in a discard deck you need to take out their hand fast, and this card just doesnt do that. waste of a card slot.
justicarphaeton
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(3 votes)
This is much better than that crappy card megrim but I still don't know how it's supposed to fit in. I'd much rather Hymn to Tourach turn two and use something like THe Rack instead...
infernox10
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Strictly better than Megrim,
But why wouldn't you run both? :3
At turn 4, you can pretty much play anything (Another Caress wouldn't hurt),
'Cause you've set yourself up something VERY pretty.
DOUBLE EDIT
I've realized I put "strictly better" where it simply is not.
Damage vs. Life loss CAN make a hellaton of difference.
So, situationally better in most cases.
Enchantment_Removal
★★★☆☆ (3.8/5.0)(2 votes)
I always enjoy trolling whenever this card is brought up ... mentioning that this card is unable to combo with Pain Magnification like Megrim can (with help from something like Furnace of Rath).
When comparing this to Megrim, remember that Megrim lived in an era when Dark Ritual existed. Without Dark Ritual, you cannot reasonably expect to cast Liliana's Caress until the second turn, thus actually making it SLOWER now that Megrim was in its day.
Also remember that cards are rarely designed with Vintage/Legacy in mind, they are designed for the current standard environment, or for limited play. People forget that when they cry "Power Creep" at cards like this. I'm not saying power creep isn't happening (looking at you Back to Nature), just that some cards that look better, are in fact equal or slightly worse when the rest of the environment is taken into account.
Ferlord
★★☆☆☆ (2.5/5.0)(2 votes)
No one, seriously has considered Mind Sludge Sure, it costs 5... but... you know, you at least discard 5 if they have a full hand. That's 10 damage. NOT EVEN RED CAN DO THAT!
Definitely an improved Megrim. Combos even better with Dark Ritual now (leaving room for 1-mana discard spells), and seeing as I loved Megrim, I know for sure that I'm gonna love this.
I've encountered a lot of people who had problems understanding how to make a proper discard deck, and I fully understand why. The thing is that your opponents tend to run out of cards really fast, which usually means that your discard spells will end up as dead cards before your opponents have died from the damage/life loss dealt by Megrim and Liliana's Caress. So, how do you win when you've discarded your opponent's hand and they're still not dead?
The first option that came to my mind was Howling Mine. Howling Mine and equivalent cards ensure a constant supply of cards to your opponents and provides you with steady stream of discard spells to keep the damage incoming. Some might ask why we would want to restock the opponent's hand when we're going through so much effort to discard it anyway, but in this case the discard shouldn't be viewed as means of removing your opponent's best cards (hand disruption), but rather, it should be viewed as a way of triggering Liliana's Caress and Megrim.
The other option that comes to mind is The Rack. The Rack ensures that your opponent keeps taking damage even when you're not able to trigger Liliana's Caress or Megrim, so you'll be able to keep your opponent locked down and still be able to win eventually.
(sorry for going off-topic there)
sorin688
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(3 votes)
this is just like megrim so honestly its just ok
Volcre
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(3 votes)
Liliana's owning Gideon!
KitaFer
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
A must-have card for any discard deck!
Wulfsten
★★★★☆ (4.2/5.0)(3 votes)
@atali: You can't take the standard environment too much into account when evaluating cards for power creep. If you do, you could just as easily say something like "well enchantments are much less prevalent in standard play than they were when tranquility was around, so Back to Nature is actually WORSE" Because value judgments about the nature of Standard as a context are necessarily subjective, you can't make accurate judgments about power creep.
That's why you need to be careful when saying things like "X card is strictly better than Y" because you are looking at the card on it's own merits, and nothing else. So in this case, although I hate to say it, Wizards has been sneaky and by changing "damage" to "life loss", ensured that Liliana's Caress isn't strictly better than Megrim.
Edit: That said, I won't accuse Liliana's Caress of being power-creepy. I respect R+D feeling like discard was an underused strategy that they feel would add variety and fun to the game if it was more competitive. What really annoys me is when they seem to think that an even BIGGER creature for even LESS mana and even FEWER drawbacks is what's needed to make the game more fun. (cough BSA cough)
Superllama12
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(3 votes)
ALMOST strictly better than Megrim Megrim is costlier, which can make a big difference. Also, Megrim causes damage, while Caress causes life loss. In general, life loss is better, because it can't be prevented or redirected, but some cards (such as those with bloodthirst or War Elemental) get improvements from damage. So no, not strictly better, but in general, superior
StephenF
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Question: in a multi-player, multi-opponent game, when I cast a Lil Caress, do I specify a single opponent or do ALL my opponents receive the benefits of LilCaress?
MindAblaze
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Burning inquiry helps solve that pesky problem of your opponent running out of cards, one mana for six lost life? Sweeeeet. Then you don't have to worry about howling mine or font of mythos putting you behind the eight ball. Or you know...memory jar ftw...
Guest1381794618
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Multiple instances of Megrim or This get really really lame. Consider; With one copy out it takes 10 discards to knock out an opponent, which isn't all that good, with 2, just 5, that's looking much more reasonable. Being able to run 8 instances of your win-con for this deck turns it into a fairly powerful casual archetype.
@StephenF It's a state-based event. Are they an opponent? Are they discarding? If both answers are YES, they lose 2 life. If during the resolution of they do not discard and/or no longer are considered an opponent, they do not lose the 2 life.
Elvoran
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
@Azazyel
I see what you did there! "Oh. Oh my, this might get out of hand really fast."
busdriverdan
★★★★☆ (4.0/5.0)(1 vote)
I dont care if megrim is bad im taking 4 of these and 4 megrims to blast my opponent with up to 16 damage per card! I do what i want!
KokoshoForPresident
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
If anyone wants to get banned from their playgroup, run this with Dragon Mage and Fireshrieker.
dlgn
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(4 votes)
According to the Duels of the Planewalkers trailer, the guy is actually Gideon.
This would have made more sense if it were 1 life loss. It would have complimented Megrim and not been over-powered.
ikillutwice
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Although I agree that megrim is worse then caress I would advise you note that megrim should be able hit planeswalkers (I would need an official ruling for it though) however caress cannot.
ibanez7321
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(1 vote)
would this card still have its affect if used with cards like curse of the bloody tomb?
JunkHarvester
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Love the art!
TheWrathofShane
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(3 votes)
One thing megrim still has going for it, the damage can be redirected to kill a walker. This cannot touch an opponents walker on the field.
Comments (66)
This is a better Megrim.
It's clearly not a powerful card by any means, but it's a well-designed card and a smash hit for its target audience. I approve!
However, in casual, this will rule. The two-dropness of this will make such a difference; you can curve into blightning, liliana's new specter or somewhat-oldie wistful thinking wihtout really losing a turn.
Turn 1- Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sol Ring, Caress, Caress
Turn 2- Island, Wheel and Deal / Windfall. Typically if there are no counters (FOW), Win.
Much better:
1) Dark Ritual, Liliana's Caress, Duress (2 lost life, 18)
2) Any discard spell, a second Caress, whatever. Since we started with an excellent opening hand already, let's be optimistic and plop down a second Caress.
3) Blightning. 3 damage, then two discards, 4 lost life for each. (11 lost life, 7)
4) Mind Rot. gg.
Megrim, clunky and preventable, would never have been able to do this (or would have required a hand picked out by the gods themselves, rather than just a very good opening hand). It's amazing how
No creatures in main deck. Back to Nature, Naturalize, War Priest of Thune and others of his Ilk are my main opposition, however the one card that completely shuts this kind of deck down is:
*drumroll*
Leyline of Sanctity
Back to the drawing board!
So my version would have been a Leyline.
Better megrim is still just crappy megrim
Turn 1- Swamp, Dark Ritual, Sol Ring, Caress, Caress
Turn 2- Island, Wheel and Deal / Windfall. Typically if there are no counters (FOW), Win."
HzUnder20
Makes me wonder how many game losses you've incurred.
Land: 20
16 Swamp
4 Island
Creatures: 4
2 Circu, Dimir Lobotomist
2 Wydwen, the Biting Gale
Spells: 36
4 Bloodchief Ascension
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana's Caress
4 Megrim
3 Painful Quandary
4 Quest for the Nihil Stone
4 Raven's Crime
Pretty straightforward; the creatures can be changed around to your liking. That's just what I had to work with.
Happy Summoning, my friends.
this card does nothing to affect neither the board nor their hand... in a discard deck you need to take out their hand fast, and this card just doesnt do that. waste of a card slot.
But why wouldn't you run both? :3
EDIT
For those "1st turn Duress" people,
I've one-upped you.
Turn 1: Quest for the Nihil Stone
Turn 2: Liliana's Caress
Turn 3: Mind Rot
At turn 4, you can pretty much play anything (Another Caress wouldn't hurt),
'Cause you've set yourself up something VERY pretty.
DOUBLE EDIT
I've realized I put "strictly better" where it simply is not.
Damage vs. Life loss CAN make a hellaton of difference.
So, situationally better in most cases.
Also remember that cards are rarely designed with Vintage/Legacy in mind, they are designed for the current standard environment, or for limited play. People forget that when they cry "Power Creep" at cards like this. I'm not saying power creep isn't happening (looking at you Back to Nature), just that some cards that look better, are in fact equal or slightly worse when the rest of the environment is taken into account.
Sure, it costs 5...
but... you know, you at least discard 5 if they have a full hand. That's 10 damage.
NOT EVEN RED CAN DO THAT!
Definitely an improved Megrim. Combos even better with Dark Ritual now (leaving room for 1-mana discard spells), and seeing as I loved Megrim, I know for sure that I'm gonna love this.
I've encountered a lot of people who had problems understanding how to make a proper discard deck, and I fully understand why. The thing is that your opponents tend to run out of cards really fast, which usually means that your discard spells will end up as dead cards before your opponents have died from the damage/life loss dealt by Megrim and Liliana's Caress. So, how do you win when you've discarded your opponent's hand and they're still not dead?
The first option that came to my mind was Howling Mine. Howling Mine and equivalent cards ensure a constant supply of cards to your opponents and provides you with steady stream of discard spells to keep the damage incoming. Some might ask why we would want to restock the opponent's hand when we're going through so much effort to discard it anyway, but in this case the discard shouldn't be viewed as means of removing your opponent's best cards (hand disruption), but rather, it should be viewed as a way of triggering Liliana's Caress and Megrim.
The other option that comes to mind is The Rack. The Rack ensures that your opponent keeps taking damage even when you're not able to trigger Liliana's Caress or Megrim, so you'll be able to keep your opponent locked down and still be able to win eventually.
(sorry for going off-topic there)
That's why you need to be careful when saying things like "X card is strictly better than Y" because you are looking at the card on it's own merits, and nothing else. So in this case, although I hate to say it, Wizards has been sneaky and by changing "damage" to "life loss", ensured that Liliana's Caress isn't strictly better than Megrim.
Edit: That said, I won't accuse Liliana's Caress of being power-creepy. I respect R+D feeling like discard was an underused strategy that they feel would add variety and fun to the game if it was more competitive. What really annoys me is when they seem to think that an even BIGGER creature for even LESS mana and even FEWER drawbacks is what's needed to make the game more fun. (cough BSA cough)
Megrim is costlier, which can make a big difference. Also, Megrim causes damage, while Caress causes life loss. In general, life loss is better, because it can't be prevented or redirected, but some cards (such as those with bloodthirst or War Elemental) get improvements from damage. So no, not strictly better, but in general, superior
Or you know...memory jar ftw...
huehuehue
It's a state-based event. Are they an opponent? Are they discarding? If both answers are YES, they lose 2 life. If during the resolution of they do not discard and/or no longer are considered an opponent, they do not lose the 2 life.
I see what you did there!
"Oh. Oh my, this might get out of hand really fast."
Turn 1
Rite of Flame
Shocker
Turn 2
Dark Ritual
2 Caresses
attack with Shocker: i once won a game this way since opponent had 7 cards in hand when i attacked.
----
Got a playset of these, built a sadistically cruel deck, haven't looked back since.
This card is joyous ... well for its users at least.