At least they are only around for a few more months....
busdude
★★☆☆☆ (2.9/5.0)(15 votes)
Certainly wouldn't have expected Wizards to print something like this, but anything that takes blue down a notch is ok in my book. So sick of blue dominating every format.
Harmonrova
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
Going straight into my Angel tribal deck. This card is too good to pass up.
magicpablo666
★☆☆☆☆ (1.6/5.0)(4 votes)
Wish I got some when they were Four dollars. Shucks.
steev
★★★☆☆ (3.0/5.0)(9 votes)
Just the sort of power boost that Faerie tribal needed back in Lorwyn.
oh wait
MyrBattlecube
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(12 votes)
Holy crap that's insane. "5/1/2012 You must choose an existing _Magic_ creature type, such as Zombie or Warrior. Card types such as artifact can't be chosen. 5/1/2012 The spell can't be countered if the mana produced by Cavern of Souls is spent to cover any cost of the spell, even an additional cost such as a kicker cost. This is true even if you use the mana to pay an additional cost while casting a spell "without paying its mana cost."" But...it's still April. I don't know what to think anymore.
adrian.malacoda
★★★☆☆ (3.8/5.0)(22 votes)
Heck yeah Now I don't have to worry about my brushwaggs getting countered
Templar314
★★★☆☆ (3.6/5.0)(28 votes)
>printing a card that every casual ridiculous-tribal-deck-builder will want >adding a can't-be-countered-clause that makes the price shoot up beyond a casual player's range
Wizards is definitely trolling us now.
Nerphice
★★★★☆ (4.5/5.0)(1 vote)
I'm a huge fan of tribal decks I will absolutly be needing to get my hands on quite a few copies of this card.
My sliver EDH deck says thanks wizards. Free mana fix while making them all uncounterable is bonkers, virtually no drawback.
Trygon_Predator
★★★☆☆ (3.1/5.0)(7 votes)
Well then. Another must-have for tribal decks... and another price hike, due to the uncounterability clause. Did you really need to add that? Did we really need uncounterable faeries and slivers and Snapcaster Mage flashbacking spells? This card is awesome and I hope I can pull it randomly, but it's probably going to have an interesting effect on the meta before it settles.
Cyberium
★★☆☆☆ (2.5/5.0)(12 votes)
The card is powerful, but also a little too simple. Mana of any color as long as they are the same type, and the creatures cannot be countered, with no drawback. Should a deck type receive such boost with almost no strategy involved?
JaFaR_Ironclad
★★☆☆☆ (2.0/5.0)(11 votes)
Those of you declaring the end of countermagic's relevance...
...there are spell types besides creature you might be interested in countering.
Wisdomseyes
★☆☆☆☆ (1.8/5.0)(11 votes)
This card is not the best card every printed. It does have some MAJOR limiting factors that are a bit more low key to see right away.
1) It produces generic mana. Okay, not that big a deal, just count it as a utility land for the purposes of deck construction and you will be fine.
2) You must call a creature type. "Theme decks" dont normally run solely on a theme, and a lot of the time feel pre-constructed if you do.
3) Creatures are the only benefactors of this cards counterproof ability. This means that in a large amount of all formats in magic the gathering, this card will not do much at all
4) This card only works against Blue control players. Granted that next to all control IS blue, but if you aren’t playing against blue all this card does is says, "Tap for generic or one mana of any color for the chosen creature type" (in the same way as a player using a mono-green deck gives all of your opponents permanents hexproof, green usually doesnt target)
I think this card in standard is going to make blue have a harder time than ever before, which makes sense, they printed snapcaster mage. One of the lead designers said in an article that snapcaster mage was accidental. This card is meant to balance out flashback mana leaks with a 2/1 attached.
5/5 for standard, but I can't really see it making much play anywhere else (maybe legacy calling human for dark confidant, delver, snapcaster... if you want to risk the generic mana)
MasterOfEtherium
★☆☆☆☆ (1.6/5.0)(8 votes)
so AWESOME
Enchantment_Removal
★★☆☆☆ (2.3/5.0)(13 votes)
"Cavern of Souls enters the battlefield tapped."
Shadoflaam
★★★☆☆ (3.4/5.0)(19 votes)
I accidentally Magic: the Gathering.
Lohran
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(1 vote)
Far as i know competitive tribal decks tend to have creatures with the same color: goblins are red, merfolks blue, combo elves green... and those creatures are cheap and that's why you dont bother when they are countered. I think it isn't relevant in tribal decks as people think, the tribal deck that could benefit most of this card are the slivers ones, which doesn't see play in competitive legacy where counterspells are mostly played. The big deal of the card is protect your finisher creature in ramp or control decks ( like titans and Wurmcoil Engine) in standard and modern but... Those formats have the weaker counterspells. In standard only Mana Leak have seen play and control, where it's played, isn't the big deal anymore. In modern you have Remand too but even so i think this land is more kind of sideboard material than the extremely overrated ''control destroyer'' people are thinking it is.
RAV0004
★★★☆☆ (3.7/5.0)(14 votes)
I declare Rigger as my creature type. Thanks Wizards, I knew you cared!
sonorhC
★★☆☆☆ (2.7/5.0)(9 votes)
This would have been a decent, usable card with only one of those abilities. With both, though, it's just insane. Yeah, multicolored tribal isn't all that common, but there's still almost no practical drawback.
JonTheRed
★★☆☆☆ (2.9/5.0)(8 votes)
Forget about tribals; this thing really shines in control-vs.-control situations. Name types like "Praetor" or "Titan", so your BU control deck's win condition doesn't get hosed by an opponent's Mana Leak. Getting the colorless mana out of it is just fine most of the time anyway, so why not just reserve this to make sure no one Dissipates your deck's biggest bombs?
Mode
★★★☆☆ (3.4/5.0)(6 votes)
DAMN! This card is just ridiculously good and almost obligatory for any tribal deck, including the monocolored ones.
1a) Mana of any color for your tribe 1b) Counter-prevention for your tribe 2) Colorless mana for anything else 3) No drawbacks!* (*Refering to triggers or additional costs like entering tapped or having to pay life or take damage. So there's no downside aside from just providing colorless mana for anything that's not that type of creature, and being nonbasic obviously.)
1a or 1b alone could have been distributed among seperate cards and would still see play. Heck, some might even consider playing this in a non-tribal deck since you still get to choose the type for a creature you want to cast easier and savely.
While the counter-immunity might be intended mostly against blue decks, this also allows some nasty combos with global effects that would usually force you to counter your spell, particularly Chalice of the Void and Nether Void. (Ice Cave still seems interesting, not so much Bazaar of Wonders, Cephalid Shrine or Planar Chaos.)
This card is going to pop up in decks for years to come. At those that can afford it, that is...
Teotanek
★★☆☆☆ (2.3/5.0)(5 votes)
When Ravnica comes again won't they have plenty of multicolored cards? if so this card might be even better.
MANABURNWASGOOD
★★★☆☆ (3.1/5.0)(10 votes)
It's stupid how good this card is.
Taiomah
★★☆☆☆ (2.3/5.0)(5 votes)
@DarthParallax Kaalia still has a bunch of room for Dragons, especially Innistrad's Balefire Dragon. You'd probably also wanna choose human as your creature type if running this in Kaalia, since it's more crippling to have her stuck in the commander zone forever than to have some fatties in the graveyard sitting there for something like a Debtor's Knell. But ya, absurdly good in EDH. Take that, Ertai, the Corrupted.
YawgmothsWish
★★★★☆ (4.4/5.0)(23 votes)
Cross format staple. It's like an Ancient Ziggurat that can be used to cast other spells such as Dismember.
The additional uncounterability effect is also extremely relevant against potential answers in every format.
Wizards' logic: Snapcaster Mage was a bit too overpowered, so let's make a card to answer it that' s WAY MORE OF A PROBLEM THAN SNAPCASTER MAGE!!! YAY!!!
SyntheticDreamer
★★★☆☆ (3.4/5.0)(9 votes)
A word of advice: name Giant, not Titan. You can thank me later.
Thanatophagous
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
So awesome in Werewolf, Sliver or Ally decks
DoragonShinzui
★★★☆☆ (3.4/5.0)(4 votes)
Oh, look, Lorwyn's back.
muggtonp
★★★☆☆ (3.4/5.0)(22 votes)
Cavern of Trolls
Mouthsmasher
★☆☆☆☆ (1.9/5.0)(10 votes)
This card makes me smile with devilish glee!! Now I can give all those freakin' blue deck users a taste of their own medicine.
Enemy_Tricolor
★★★★☆ (4.0/5.0)(9 votes)
And with the release of Avacyn Restored, the world came one step closer to the advent of the Invincible Oyster Deck.
DarthParallax
★☆☆☆☆ (1.2/5.0)(8 votes)
Wow. Yep even THIS is broken in Kaalia!
1) This is for Angels.
2) Vesuva can turn into this-for-Demons. Kaalia doesn't have room for Dragons after AVR releases. (OK, maybe you can play dragons if you want, but probably the Angels+Demons only build is stronger unless you were one of the few people that follow Worldgorger Dragon's ban-status or lifting thereof)
3) Commander games tend to go long enough to get lots of lands.
4) Ideally, you should be casting not just the 1 free creature per turn with Kaalia, but also possibly tapping half-out for an extra creature a turn. This will make those creatures as uncounterable as Kaalia makes the free creature, and Anger in graveyard will make them as hasty.
5) It's a tribal land, Kaalia's a tribal Commander. Yes, you obviously obviously DO play this in Kaalia. There are even some cheap Demons in this set to make it better.
Edit: Yeah, actually I saw that Furborn Hellkite from M12- lol can't believe I forgot about him, SOO good with Gisela. Anyway, you make some valid points Taiomah- but whether you choose Demons, or Angels, or Dragons, or even Humans (and Kaalia isn't the only one- looking at you Tinker-Belle!), it's a must in any 'themed' EDH deck, and you can use Vesuva for redundancy.
Maybe you set the first one to humans so Kaalia and Stoneforge are locked in as safe plays, and THEN you set the Vesuva to whichever beat-stick type you're playing the most of? If you don't run some way to copy this ability tho, consider that you should have some kind of permanents to protect Kaalia if she sticks once, so ideally she won't leave play and you really want to be guarding whatever she's spewing.
Look, whether for my reasons, or for somebody else's better reasons, you STILL play this card in Kaalia.
Majinkajisan
★★☆☆☆ (2.2/5.0)(10 votes)
I remember, back in the day, wizards were going to ban islands as an April Fools joke. This is far more damaging. No wonder blue is getting more Aggro.
It's about time control players found out what it's like to play against cards that aren't fun.
SumBum
★★☆☆☆ (2.0/5.0)(9 votes)
Should've been printed ages ago to combat all the Mana Leaking going on.
D34D2R1T35
★★☆☆☆ (2.6/5.0)(9 votes)
Does anyone remember Boseiju, Who Shelters All, the legend that made sorcs and instant's uncounterable and came with a cost and was LEGENDARY
What is this stink on the wind.... Does anyone else smell power creep... I think I smell some power creep
Olivier1o1
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(2 votes)
It's a good tool for creature decks to fight control with, but people are forgetting one important thing: Land destruction is in the format. Most control decks are running a decent number of ghost quarters already to deal with inkmoth nexus's being titan'd in, so they now have more targets to hit.
nirvava
★★★☆☆ (3.1/5.0)(10 votes)
Wizards wouldn't even have to print cards like this if they would just print answers to control style of play, as often as they print control style cards. Every single set you get a plethara of counterspells, instant creature removal, deck manipulation and the standard board wipe, and then every once in a great while they print an aggro or direct damage card that can match or (God forbid) exceed the control player's tempo.
I can't count how long the "watch me play spells at the end of your turn and play lands for 8 turns then beat you down with my ridiculously overcosted 2 cmc creature" style of play has dominated this game.
Control players need to learn that there are other styles of play that can and should be rewarded. Sitting on your hand and casting at the end of my turn doesn't make you the master of strategy in this game. It simply means that you have identified the design flaw, and exploited it for an unnecessarily protracted amount of time. This game needs more flashback, more recurring creatures and more ways to exceed tempo.
dlgn
★☆☆☆☆ (1.8/5.0)(11 votes)
Yay, zombie tribal is even more overpowered! This card is ridiculous, 5/5.
EDIT: All right, who rated me at 0.5/5?
Mike-C
★★☆☆☆ (2.8/5.0)(2 votes)
Get ready all.. LD is in its rebuilding stage, soon is the hour in which it becomes.. "a deck.." again. I, for one am ecstatic about that.. Needless to say, the above land (and ALL the lands in this set, are lookin like some BMF's!)
gatorjunkie
★★☆☆☆ (2.4/5.0)(7 votes)
I think control decks can adjust to this. In fact I think there are ways to use it to a control deck's advantage. There are more ways to take care of creatures than just counter them. Everyone is talking about Titan ramp decks, but there are ways to use this card to play control against them.
For example, if you are playing human tribal, play cavern of souls from the get go and pick human as your creature type. Suppose that you play Champion of the Parish on turn 1. When someone manages to get a Titan out, you can respond the next turn with an uncounterable Fiend Hunter, which you can then protect with an uncounterable Elgaud Shieldmate, or Negate, or Turn Aside, orMana Leak.
Essentially control can still exist if you use creatures with activated abilities and triggered abilities instead of countering everything. Using those creatures in combination with Cavern of Souls is a very effective way to do it.
I'm just trying to think of humans off of the top of my head...
Snapcaster Mage is also a human, which means it can be uncounterable as well. Captain of the Mists can also help with controlling creatures. Beguiler of Wills should not be underestimated either. Actually this card could become beast with Elgaud Shieldmate and bigger creatures entering into the format because of Cavern of Souls. Pair it with Galvanic Alchemist too. Not to mention that humans have the best card to combo with Cavern of Souls in the set with Somberwald Sage. Ulvenwald Tracker
There are ways to play control with Cavern of Souls, but control players are just going to have to get more creative when it comes to dealing with creatures. The only complaint I have with the card is they should have made it come into play tapped.
typezeroserodin
★★☆☆☆ (2.8/5.0)(2 votes)
Now I don't have to worry about my spellstutter sprites being hit by spell snare! Thank you WIZARDS! 5/5 rating for me. And, for the record, even though this card is also pretty effective in helping blue tribal such as merfolk and fae, it works against them even more effectively. Sure running this means my counterspells are uncounterable, but that is only hinging on the idea that my opponents' aren't running the same thing. In essence, for a blue deck, its a marginal improvement, whereas for other decks (goblins, elves, etc etc), its a perfect answer.
The new non-mythic lotus cobra ? At least being a card that everyone wants and needs to play top tier decks.
HowardTreesong
★☆☆☆☆ (1.8/5.0)(6 votes)
Great card but you have to build a suitable deck around it to get the best use. It works as a multicolour land only for the creature type you declare, for all other creatures, artifacts and spells it only generates colourless without the countering immunity. Why is that so broken? It's powerful but mostly against blue, it has to be used properly because it's not an overpowered bomb card or something that fits any deck going. Certainly I've drawn it in sealed deck and left it out of the games because there were too many different creature types in the deck for it to be worthwhile.
Your sorceries and instants are not protected. Blue has been getting out of hand recently with Snapcaster Mage, now there's some protection out there for people building creature heavy tribal decks. If you have a mixed deck or a lot of sorcery/instant play it's nowhere near as useful. If you're playing red-white humans as I am, then it's great. It's good but I think the money people are paying for it currently is rather over the top. I've been very fortunate to get three of these from the 25 or so Avacyn packs I've opened so far, but I still have to limit the non-human cards as I can struggle to cast them when I have Caverns rather than actual coloured-mana producing lands on the table.
CammyWhite
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(10 votes)
Imagine the fear in a casual players face when you declare "LEVIATHAN"
rogelio
★★★☆☆ (3.6/5.0)(14 votes)
Imagine if this came out during the days of Slivers.
GlassJoetheChamp
★★☆☆☆ (3.0/5.0)(10 votes)
So I guess Draw-Go's not making a comeback any time soon. :(
mononegator
★★☆☆☆ (2.4/5.0)(12 votes)
So much salty {U}
For real, if my reanimator gets hated with Grafdigger's Cage, so should blue counterspells....
Crying for a ban so early....honestly...
EDIT: lol at comment rating, cry MOAR {U}
Dream_Twist
★★☆☆☆ (2.3/5.0)(5 votes)
It's like this:
Standard - Screw you Mana Leak
respond with ghost quarter.
Legacy - *** of Force of Will
respond with wasteland.
It's not exactly going to blow up the meta-game as much as some might think. It's just a kick in the pants to blue permission decks.
JimmyNoobPlayer
★★★☆☆ (3.1/5.0)(8 votes)
Some hindsight:
In the 2012 World Magic Cup Qualifier, out of the 24 top-8 decks in the three American and Canadian cities, 9 included any Cavern of Souls.
15 included Snapcaster Mages.
Whenever WotC wants more complaints on Gatherer, all they need to do is weaken counterspells. No one complains more than counterspell lovers.
Purin
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Turn 1: Cavern of Souls, name Humans, play Grim Lavamancer 2: ANY Land, Dark Confidant 3: Land, Knight of the Reliquary 4: Land, Braids
j_mindfingerpainter
★★★☆☆ (3.4/5.0)(6 votes)
Crazy land is crazy.
rambocop
★★☆☆☆ (2.0/5.0)(6 votes)
There's nothing wrong with printing a land like this.
Haterz gonna hate the hate land...
Eluem
★★★☆☆ (3.2/5.0)(10 votes)
Uncounterable, huh...
Where's the "Comes into play tapped", "Pay 2, life...", "Tap, sacrifice", "Bounce a land back to hand", "Somethnig to make this broken card balanced" clause?
Note: I hate counterspell decks... but.. this card is skilless. Against counterspell decks: Make any tribal deck, draw this, win.
Also.. the mana fix.. the insane amount of mana fix... why doesn't it ONLY produce colorless? I mean.. what,what,what,what,what?
Sliver_Legion
★★☆☆☆ (2.0/5.0)(3 votes)
We often face counterspells and rarely use them ourselves, however...
This card is...dishonorable. We cannot allow ourselves to be cast using its mana, and shall consider using Necrotic Sliver to destroy it. We would prefer to run Root Sliver instead.
Cygore
★★☆☆☆ (2.8/5.0)(2 votes)
This thing is awesome for multiple reasons. It doesn't come in to play tapped, it taps for colorless if needed, it helps casting multicolored creatures, AND makes spells it casts unable to be countered. The shame from spending $80 for a play set is outweighed by how awesome it is :)
Gcrudaplaneswalker
★★★★☆ (4.0/5.0)(8 votes)
Creature type: bird. Muahahahaha! Now no one will be able to counter my Storm Crow!!
Fictionarious
★☆☆☆☆ (1.9/5.0)(9 votes)
Puts an end to all that "countering your creatures" nonsense your opponents were planning.
Honestly, I don't like cards that single-handedly destroy whole deck archetypes. If I were running a permission deck and saw this hit the table turn one, I'd probably just concede right there. Is there stuff you could side in to stop it? Probably, but it's just not worth it at this point. So many problems have a free pass to hit the table even from just a few turns of this it's not even funny.
Seriously, how are counterspells considered less fun than this? Creature, go; creature, go; creature, removal, go; HEY I WONDER WHOSE CREATURES ARE GOING TO BE THE BIGGEST WHEN WE BOTH START TOPDECKING HUR DURRR.
Oh well, that's the game Wizards wants us to play now.
Lord.Gold
★★☆☆☆ (2.9/5.0)(4 votes)
I predict this will become a much more valuable card when stuffing your deck with lands that tap for one mana of any color ceases to be an option and begins to become a requirement when we Return to Ravnica.
yousquiddinme
★★★☆☆ (3.2/5.0)(5 votes)
Completely ridiculous.
Absolutely nuts.
Hakkology
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
Reason i keep a Tectonic Rift in my deck whenever i play a counterspell deck.
Vakyoom
★★☆☆☆ (2.3/5.0)(5 votes)
This card defines almost every multicolor deck in the game right now, im not sure the current price but $100 for a playset of lands is pretty ridiculous. And im with everyone else, wtf was you thinking wizards? Where's the drawback? The gimmick? I've had people with 3 on the board with creature types beast, elf and angel. Restoration angels bouncing elves and the green avacyn mythic beastie.
it wouldn't be so bad if thid card either came into play tapped, only added colorless mana with the counter effect or how about doing it smart and making this a legendary land. I know its not kamigawa times anymore but don't act like this card (and probably inkmoth nexus) should've been legendary. Wasn't the last legendary land the eldrazi one? That may have been an artifact however. Or both...
But I digress, something however is wrong very with this card. Actually, most of it is wrong. A super @$#% you blue card and a no challenge way to get any color mana. RtR is gonna be hell if i don't get my hands on a playset... Omms for the poor anyone? Zzzz....
Vandarringa
★★☆☆☆ (2.5/5.0)(9 votes)
This card is the reason I stopped buying cards.
1) Hoses entire archetypes and an entire set of answers. I like playing with countermagic. It is interactive, can be strategically played against, and ups the ante on tension and uncertainty. People have already said this.
2) Has no real downsides. People have already said this.
3) Really says eff you to budget builders. It's a rare that practically everyone needs to play. Moreover, if you want to play a controlling deck, the only real budget answer to a fat creature with a big ETB effect, like, say, Grave Titan, is to counter it. The same goes for 'hexproof' creatures (and don't get me started on hexproof and non-interactivity). They've nerfed the countermagic in M13, which should have been enough. Did they really need to print this absolutely broken, expensive rare?
SkyknightXi
★★☆☆☆ (2.9/5.0)(9 votes)
For the record, this was designed primarily in an attempt to counterweight Snapcaster Mage's tendency to grant far more counterspells than usual. One gets the feeling it didn't quite succeed at keeping the scales from careening in any direction...(wonders if anyone ever considered just banning Snapcaster, as per Stoneforge Mystic, but was shouted down by the singles market...and what it's going to take to get curly braces to actually appear properly in comments)
Maybe this would have worked better: Only one tap ability for one colorless, and if spent on the target creature type, it becomes uncounterable (read: remove the mana-fixing element). A non-legendary sort of Boseiju, Who Shelters All...except for the not-so-tiny detail that Boseiju also required life payment...
MakeshiftMage
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(1 vote)
This is what I use as my middle finger to counter spell decks. It makes my zombies and vampires not fall victim to the Isochron Scepter, Countersepell combo. But just in case I do run into that combo in my zombies I have two Stifles but this card makes me not use them up against combos like that. Plus Stifle is the counter I like.
DacenOctavio
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
I want so see a discard spell with "{B}, Exile this card from your graveyard: Exile target card from a graveyard." I think that would have put a damper on Snapcaster Mage.
sehrlich88
★★★☆☆ (3.8/5.0)(4 votes)
I'm a huge fan of legacy and this card can be used to really push aggro back into the game. Having force of wills and dazes constantly being used makes it tough to really get a offense going. This card allows you some defense while not being broken. Wastelands are a thing and this feels really balanced with the current meta. You really don't need to be using tribal either to use this effectively. It allows for a lot of options on the draw and protects a threat. Actually getting to stick a Dark Confidant feels nice once in a while.
ElvisPriestley
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
This card has proven itself. You can listen to Stephen Menendian & Kevin Cron's latest So Many Insane Plays #17 to hear more about Cavern of Souls.
ThinkOriginal
★★☆☆☆ (2.5/5.0)(4 votes)
Here, I think, is a good way to look at the Snapcaster Mage vs. Cavern of Souls "OP" argument.
When played against any deck archetype other than Control decks, Cavern of Souls is a Tribal mana-fixer. A really good one, but nothing more. And the mana-fixing only works for creatures. If a deck has no countering spells, it's second ability is virtually meaningless to the opponent.
However, Snapcaster Mage can dominate against almost every deck archetype. It doesn't matter if the opponent is piloting Zombies, Delver, or really anything else, as Snapcaster retains his value completely. Plus, you are using spells twice, which means card advantage. Cavern of Souls cannot bring anything back from the grave....well except Gravecrawler, but that's semantics.
So, if you look at the two in terms of opponent-deck-type ratio, I'd say Snapcaster Mage is the far more broken card.
pedrodyl
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(3 votes)
Needless to say, in a creature heavy meta game, this rapes. But so does Turbo-fog ;) EDIT: So yeah this card is pretty ridiculous. Here's to hoping they reprint stone rain in M13! Hmm No stone rain... alright so another automatic 4-of in (almost) every deck Just like Inkmoth Nexus or Rishidan Port was . And these are all unnecessarily expensive which makes me a sad panda
TheBurningTrain
★★★☆☆ (3.3/5.0)(6 votes)
And there goes countermagic. As a control player, I understand why this exists, especially in vintage. However, not having a viable answer to it in standard is devastating. I know Wizards is afraid of land destruction, but when this exists, something needs to be done.
mattjayne
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(4 votes)
Playing control decks is a crutch...finally a card that can withstand it!
Arachnos
★★★☆☆ (3.8/5.0)(4 votes)
Has the potential to make a Sliver deck unstoppable.
Totema
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
I love this card, I really do, but I'm sick of seeing a playset in every damn deck in standard.
talcumpowder0046
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(5 votes)
Apparently the only good lands casual players get are basics.
The guildgates are some compensation, except that, you know, YOU LOSE if you have more than 6 in your deck from tempo loss!
DerangedAssistant
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
i love how the rulings emphasize MAGIC creature type. "I choose zerglings"
uncounterable zerglings- now Thats terrifying
Continue
★★★★☆ (4.8/5.0)(3 votes)
If you can afford to run four of these in a tribal deck and you don't, something's wrong with you.
LordOfTheUniverseMCS
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.8/5.0)(2 votes)
"BooHoo this hoses my control deck! Ban it!"
How does this hose control? See, there is this thing called REMOVAL. Control decks use it to get rid of creatures. Herpaderp
TheWrathofShane
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(3 votes)
This card ensures thragtusk dominance.
OverkillXLR
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
Any one who rates this at less than a 4 is a blue mage with at least 8 counters in their standard deck. I've opened with this only to have people then surrender b/c they thought a hand of 3 land and 4 counter spells would get them by for a while.
SAUS3
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
@DerangedAssistant Hellbats too OP!!!
I like this card. I'm glad wizards is printing 'can't be countered' stuff. The thing about removal, is it's more like rock paper scissors with large trade-offs and stuff. - You can't destroy something that's indestructible, but you can exile it, but exiling costs more than destroying. - You can't exile or destroy something with shroud or hexproof, but sweepers can take it oout, but then your own stuff gets destroyed too
There are a ton of different things like that.
The thing is, if what you are using is a SPELL, counterspells can stop it. Their only drawback is that if they don't counter it as it's cast, they have to deal with something in play.
Fighting permission decks is stupid. If you get something through, there is a good chance of winning. If you don't get a powerful creature through in the first few turns, you may as well scoop (the only reason island.dec can ever win).
The only problem with this card is that it will never be cheap, and you need it in all decks. I think I prefer the other cards they are printing like abrupt decay which give you something to fight counterspells as well as not going into absolutely every deck.
RiftenBlack
★★★☆☆ (3.6/5.0)(8 votes)
I think this land is very powerful. There is no debating this.
I don't like the design or intention though. All this has done is cause people to resolve their best creature spells, especially ones with hexproof and etb effects. With such efficient value creatures or creatures you can't even interact with once they enter the battlefield, why print a land that just makes that strategy even more dominant than it otherwise would have been?
I just don't see why Wizards has to hose countermagic so much. What is so bad about countering a creature vs. terminating it, or path of exiling it, or putrifying it? Isn't it the same thing, more or less?
Yes, the countermagic is "better" in that it deals with hexproof and etb creatures, but it's also nowhere near as flexible as a naturalize or path of exile either, because if you don't have the mana to counter it, the card is useless. Holding mana for counter spells can also result in a tempo loss, or not spending your mana efficienctly each turn. To put it simply, counter magic is never "strictly better" compared to removal, and never will be.
But with this land, you've just essentially made counter magic far worse than it should be, as if making counterpells less efficient compared to spot removal wasn't enough already.
This card is a mistake.
Nasferot2
★★☆☆☆ (2.0/5.0)(3 votes)
jeez all i hear is wine,wine,wine dang little boys an girls so the creature cant be countered,there's more than one way to skin a cat.
robin0999
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(3 votes)
There is going to be a two month period in which this is going to be standard alongside Slivers. Mother of God.
RamenAwesome
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(3 votes)
Well, there goes all my spending money. Thanks a lot wizards...
Faelivri
★★☆☆☆ (2.8/5.0)(4 votes)
Thank God this will leave standard and I hope nobody will be stupid enough to reprint this in the future formats.
Enelysios
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
I have played against it and its not unbeatable. Most tribal decks rely on casting lots of spells each turn, this only gives one a free ride, so you can counter anything else. (Just make sure your opponent shows which mana are going to what spell so they can't BS you.) Cavern is a land so blue is kind of boned against that, but there are cheap colorless answers, consider Ghost Quarter. Finally, diversifying your control will make you and your opponent have more fun in casual. Blue can reduce power, tap and bounce creatures in addition to just countering them, so consider beefing up your control deck with those.
That said, I dislike this card. No, I do not think its really overpowered, and I think making uncounterable cards is a good idea, but I am not a fan of this one in particular. Time since release has shown this card isn't that great actually. I just think its not a very fun card to play with or against. It is non-interactive in the same way that the permission decks it was meant to fight are. However, I feel that we still need a few answers to blue hard control floating around, so its better than nothing.
Its just kind of an auto-pilot card against auto-pilot counter decks. Despite my personal dislike for it, I would rather it exist than nothing to perform this duty, I just wish it had a more interesting design. I know this post only covers my negative feelings on it, but I will give it a 4/5.
blurrymadness
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Is brutal for vintage, among other things. Someone ran this with a human deck and took 5th. This is fine even for non-tribal decks just to push through an important creature; on top of further enabling multicolor in said decks.
Mono-color, multicolor, tribal, non-tribal, etc.. creature decks love this.
Mr.Freshness-Timmy
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
Because tribal decks needed to be more expensive. And all eldrazi should never be countered.
A better response would be Summoning Trap. Cavern of Souls is stupid.
TheGigiBeast
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Mwawwa, now nothing can stop Sliver Queen and her army!
MisterAction
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Is it more powerful than it needed to be? Sure, the last ability probably should have been ", ." But I'm disappointed in all the complaining blue players here. If you want to throw a tantrum, you should be playing red. We're the color of intelligence and logic, let's find a solution!
Even if you ignore the six lands that can kill this, and several blue cards that can steal it, "Can't be countered" doesn't even hose countermagic! Mindbreak Trap, Venser, Shaper Savant and Time Stop will keep the creature from resolving, or you could just steal it with Gather Specimens.
This was a long time coming. I'm only mad at the price tag.
UNATCO
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Use this to summon Mystic Snake and you have not only a 2/2 creature with flash, but a counter spell that in turn cannot be countered...
yesennes
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(2 votes)
Dumb in even non-tribal decks. Should be in any EDH deck that can afford one, just name the commanders type. I don't care if that is your only one of that type, as long as you play against blue once in a while.
PlagaDeDuendes
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
I pack 4 of these in my goblin themed deck. It's a perfect addition to the deck especially when going up against a control deck. This card lets you play vital creatures more comfortably. Of course, the creatures played can still get Doom Bladed, however.
Doufeelthewindcoming
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Another five-star vote for its use in a tribal creature deck-I got four in my sliver deck. I am surprised that it is not a mythic.
Comments (99)
At least they are only around for a few more months....
oh wait
"5/1/2012 You must choose an existing _Magic_ creature type, such as Zombie or Warrior. Card types such as artifact can't be chosen.
5/1/2012 The spell can't be countered if the mana produced by Cavern of Souls is spent to cover any cost of the spell, even an additional cost such as a kicker cost. This is true even if you use the mana to pay an additional cost while casting a spell "without paying its mana cost.""
But...it's still April. I don't know what to think anymore.
Now I don't have to worry about my brushwaggs getting countered
>adding a can't-be-countered-clause that makes the price shoot up beyond a casual player's range
Wizards is definitely trolling us now.
My sliver EDH deck says thanks wizards. Free mana fix while making them all uncounterable is bonkers, virtually no drawback.
This card is awesome and I hope I can pull it randomly, but it's probably going to have an interesting effect on the meta before it settles.
...there are spell types besides creature you might be interested in countering.
1) It produces generic mana. Okay, not that big a deal, just count it as a utility land for the purposes of deck construction and you will be fine.
2) You must call a creature type. "Theme decks" dont normally run solely on a theme, and a lot of the time feel pre-constructed if you do.
3) Creatures are the only benefactors of this cards counterproof ability. This means that in a large amount of all formats in magic the gathering, this card will not do much at all
4) This card only works against Blue control players. Granted that next to all control IS blue, but if you aren’t playing against blue all this card does is says, "Tap for generic or one mana of any color for the chosen creature type" (in the same way as a player using a mono-green deck gives all of your opponents permanents hexproof, green usually doesnt target)
I think this card in standard is going to make blue have a harder time than ever before, which makes sense, they printed snapcaster mage. One of the lead designers said in an article that snapcaster mage was accidental. This card is meant to balance out flashback mana leaks with a 2/1 attached.
5/5 for standard, but I can't really see it making much play anywhere else (maybe legacy calling human for dark confidant, delver, snapcaster... if you want to risk the generic mana)
1a) Mana of any color for your tribe
1b) Counter-prevention for your tribe
2) Colorless mana for anything else
3) No drawbacks!*
(*Refering to triggers or additional costs like entering tapped or having to pay life or take damage. So there's no downside aside from just providing colorless mana for anything that's not that type of creature, and being nonbasic obviously.)
1a or 1b alone could have been distributed among seperate cards and would still see play.
Heck, some might even consider playing this in a non-tribal deck since you still get to choose the type for a creature you want to cast easier and savely.
While the counter-immunity might be intended mostly against blue decks, this also allows some nasty combos with global effects that would usually force you to counter your spell, particularly Chalice of the Void and Nether Void.
(Ice Cave still seems interesting, not so much Bazaar of Wonders, Cephalid Shrine or Planar Chaos.)
This card is going to pop up in decks for years to come. At those that can afford it, that is...
Kaalia still has a bunch of room for Dragons, especially Innistrad's Balefire Dragon. You'd probably also wanna choose human as your creature type if running this in Kaalia, since it's more crippling to have her stuck in the commander zone forever than to have some fatties in the graveyard sitting there for something like a Debtor's Knell. But ya, absurdly good in EDH. Take that, Ertai, the Corrupted.
The additional uncounterability effect is also extremely relevant against potential answers in every format.
Block: ?? Dissipate
Standard: Mana Leak
Extended: Spellstutter Sprite, Cryptic Command
Modern: Spell Snare, Remand
Legacy: Mental Misstep, Counterbalance
Vintage: Chalice of the Void , Force of Will, Mana Drain
1) This is for Angels.
2) Vesuva can turn into this-for-Demons. Kaalia doesn't have room for Dragons after AVR releases.
(OK, maybe you can play dragons if you want, but probably the Angels+Demons only build is stronger unless you were one of the few people that follow Worldgorger Dragon's ban-status or lifting thereof)
3) Commander games tend to go long enough to get lots of lands.
4) Ideally, you should be casting not just the 1 free creature per turn with Kaalia, but also possibly tapping half-out for an extra creature a turn. This will make those creatures as uncounterable as Kaalia makes the free creature, and Anger in graveyard will make them as hasty.
5) It's a tribal land, Kaalia's a tribal Commander. Yes, you obviously obviously DO play this in Kaalia. There are even some cheap Demons in this set to make it better.
Edit: Yeah, actually I saw that Furborn Hellkite from M12- lol can't believe I forgot about him, SOO good with Gisela. Anyway, you make some valid points Taiomah- but whether you choose Demons, or Angels, or Dragons, or even Humans (and Kaalia isn't the only one- looking at you Tinker-Belle!), it's a must in any 'themed' EDH deck, and you can use Vesuva for redundancy.
Maybe you set the first one to humans so Kaalia and Stoneforge are locked in as safe plays, and THEN you set the Vesuva to whichever beat-stick type you're playing the most of? If you don't run some way to copy this ability tho, consider that you should have some kind of permanents to protect Kaalia if she sticks once, so ideally she won't leave play and you really want to be guarding whatever she's spewing.
Look, whether for my reasons, or for somebody else's better reasons, you STILL play this card in Kaalia.
Turn 2: Cavern of Souls, name the creature type "Bird", cast Storm Crow.
What is this stink on the wind....
Does anyone else smell power creep...
I think I smell some power creep
I can't count how long the "watch me play spells at the end of your turn and play lands for 8 turns then beat you down with my ridiculously overcosted 2 cmc creature" style of play has dominated this game.
Control players need to learn that there are other styles of play that can and should be rewarded. Sitting on your hand and casting at the end of my turn doesn't make you the master of strategy in this game. It simply means that you have identified the design flaw, and exploited it for an unnecessarily protracted amount of time. This game needs more flashback, more recurring creatures and more ways to exceed tempo.
EDIT: All right, who rated me at 0.5/5?
For example, if you are playing human tribal, play cavern of souls from the get go and pick human as your creature type. Suppose that you play Champion of the Parish on turn 1. When someone manages to get a Titan out, you can respond the next turn with an uncounterable Fiend Hunter, which you can then protect with an uncounterable Elgaud Shieldmate, or Negate, or Turn Aside, orMana Leak.
Essentially control can still exist if you use creatures with activated abilities and triggered abilities instead of countering everything. Using those creatures in combination with Cavern of Souls is a very effective way to do it.
I'm just trying to think of humans off of the top of my head...
Snapcaster Mage is also a human, which means it can be uncounterable as well.
Captain of the Mists can also help with controlling creatures.
Beguiler of Wills should not be underestimated either. Actually this card could become beast with Elgaud Shieldmate and bigger creatures entering into the format because of Cavern of Souls. Pair it with Galvanic Alchemist too.
Not to mention that humans have the best card to combo with Cavern of Souls in the set with Somberwald Sage.
Ulvenwald Tracker
There are ways to play control with Cavern of Souls, but control players are just going to have to get more creative when it comes to dealing with creatures. The only complaint I have with the card is they should have made it come into play tapped.
And, for the record, even though this card is also pretty effective in helping blue tribal such as merfolk and fae, it works against them even more effectively. Sure running this means my counterspells are uncounterable, but that is only hinging on the idea that my opponents' aren't running the same thing. In essence, for a blue deck, its a marginal improvement, whereas for other decks (goblins, elves, etc etc), its a perfect answer.
Your sorceries and instants are not protected. Blue has been getting out of hand recently with Snapcaster Mage, now there's some protection out there for people building creature heavy tribal decks. If you have a mixed deck or a lot of sorcery/instant play it's nowhere near as useful. If you're playing red-white humans as I am, then it's great. It's good but I think the money people are paying for it currently is rather over the top. I've been very fortunate to get three of these from the 25 or so Avacyn packs I've opened so far, but I still have to limit the non-human cards as I can struggle to cast them when I have Caverns rather than actual coloured-mana producing lands on the table.
For real, if my reanimator gets hated with Grafdigger's Cage, so should blue counterspells....
Crying for a ban so early....honestly...
EDIT: lol at comment rating, cry MOAR {U}
Standard - Screw you Mana Leak
respond with ghost quarter.
Legacy - *** of Force of Will
respond with wasteland.
It's not exactly going to blow up the meta-game as much as some might think. It's just a kick in the pants to blue permission decks.
In the 2012 World Magic Cup Qualifier, out of the 24 top-8 decks in the three American and Canadian cities, 9 included any Cavern of Souls.
15 included Snapcaster Mages.
Whenever WotC wants more complaints on Gatherer, all they need to do is weaken counterspells. No one complains more than counterspell lovers.
2: ANY Land, Dark Confidant
3: Land, Knight of the Reliquary
4: Land, Braids
Haterz gonna hate the hate land...
Where's the "Comes into play tapped", "Pay 2, life...", "Tap, sacrifice", "Bounce a land back to hand", "Somethnig to make this broken card balanced" clause?
Note: I hate counterspell decks... but.. this card is skilless.
Against counterspell decks: Make any tribal deck, draw this, win.
Also.. the mana fix.. the insane amount of mana fix... why doesn't it ONLY produce colorless? I mean.. what,what,what,what,what?
This card is...dishonorable. We cannot allow ourselves to be cast using its mana, and shall consider using Necrotic Sliver to destroy it. We would prefer to run Root Sliver instead.
Honestly, I don't like cards that single-handedly destroy whole deck archetypes. If I were running a permission deck and saw this hit the table turn one, I'd probably just concede right there. Is there stuff you could side in to stop it? Probably, but it's just not worth it at this point. So many problems have a free pass to hit the table even from just a few turns of this it's not even funny.
Seriously, how are counterspells considered less fun than this? Creature, go; creature, go; creature, removal, go; HEY I WONDER WHOSE CREATURES ARE GOING TO BE THE BIGGEST WHEN WE BOTH START TOPDECKING HUR DURRR.
Oh well, that's the game Wizards wants us to play now.
Absolutely nuts.
it wouldn't be so bad if thid card either came into play tapped, only added colorless mana with the counter effect or how about doing it smart and making this a legendary land. I know its not kamigawa times anymore but don't act like this card (and probably inkmoth nexus) should've been legendary. Wasn't the last legendary land the eldrazi one? That may have been an artifact however. Or both...
But I digress, something however is wrong very with this card. Actually, most of it is wrong. A super @$#% you blue card and a no challenge way to get any color mana. RtR is gonna be hell if i don't get my hands on a playset... Omms for the poor anyone? Zzzz....
1) Hoses entire archetypes and an entire set of answers. I like playing with countermagic. It is interactive, can be strategically played against, and ups the ante on tension and uncertainty. People have already said this.
2) Has no real downsides. People have already said this.
3) Really says eff you to budget builders. It's a rare that practically everyone needs to play. Moreover, if you want to play a controlling deck, the only real budget answer to a fat creature with a big ETB effect, like, say, Grave Titan, is to counter it. The same goes for 'hexproof' creatures (and don't get me started on hexproof and non-interactivity). They've nerfed the countermagic in M13, which should have been enough. Did they really need to print this absolutely broken, expensive rare?
Maybe this would have worked better: Only one tap ability for one colorless, and if spent on the target creature type, it becomes uncounterable (read: remove the mana-fixing element). A non-legendary sort of Boseiju, Who Shelters All...except for the not-so-tiny detail that Boseiju also required life payment...
When played against any deck archetype other than Control decks, Cavern of Souls is a Tribal mana-fixer. A really good one, but nothing more. And the mana-fixing only works for creatures. If a deck has no countering spells, it's second ability is virtually meaningless to the opponent.
However, Snapcaster Mage can dominate against almost every deck archetype. It doesn't matter if the opponent is piloting Zombies, Delver, or really anything else, as Snapcaster retains his value completely. Plus, you are using spells twice, which means card advantage. Cavern of Souls cannot bring anything back from the grave....well except Gravecrawler, but that's semantics.
So, if you look at the two in terms of opponent-deck-type ratio, I'd say Snapcaster Mage is the far more broken card.
But so does Turbo-fog ;)
EDIT: So yeah this card is pretty ridiculous.
Here's to hoping they reprint stone rain in M13!
Hmm No stone rain... alright so another automatic 4-of in (almost) every deck Just like Inkmoth Nexus or Rishidan Port was . And these are all unnecessarily expensive which makes me a sad panda
The guildgates are some compensation, except that, you know, YOU LOSE if you have more than 6 in your deck from tempo loss!
uncounterable zerglings- now Thats terrifying
How does this hose control? See, there is this thing called REMOVAL. Control decks use it to get rid of creatures.
Herpaderp
Hellbats too OP!!!
I like this card. I'm glad wizards is printing 'can't be countered' stuff. The thing about removal, is it's more like rock paper scissors with large trade-offs and stuff.
- You can't destroy something that's indestructible, but you can exile it, but exiling costs more than destroying.
- You can't exile or destroy something with shroud or hexproof, but sweepers can take it oout, but then your own stuff gets destroyed too
There are a ton of different things like that.
The thing is, if what you are using is a SPELL, counterspells can stop it. Their only drawback is that if they don't counter it as it's cast, they have to deal with something in play.
Fighting permission decks is stupid. If you get something through, there is a good chance of winning. If you don't get a powerful creature through in the first few turns, you may as well scoop (the only reason island.dec can ever win).
The only problem with this card is that it will never be cheap, and you need it in all decks. I think I prefer the other cards they are printing like abrupt decay which give you something to fight counterspells as well as not going into absolutely every deck.
I don't like the design or intention though. All this has done is cause people to resolve their best creature spells, especially ones with hexproof and etb effects. With such efficient value creatures or creatures you can't even interact with once they enter the battlefield, why print a land that just makes that strategy even more dominant than it otherwise would have been?
I just don't see why Wizards has to hose countermagic so much. What is so bad about countering a creature vs. terminating it, or path of exiling it, or putrifying it? Isn't it the same thing, more or less?
Yes, the countermagic is "better" in that it deals with hexproof and etb creatures, but it's also nowhere near as flexible as a naturalize or path of exile either, because if you don't have the mana to counter it, the card is useless. Holding mana for counter spells can also result in a tempo loss, or not spending your mana efficienctly each turn. To put it simply, counter magic is never "strictly better" compared to removal, and never will be.
But with this land, you've just essentially made counter magic far worse than it should be, as if making counterpells less efficient compared to spot removal wasn't enough already.
This card is a mistake.
Mother of God.
That said, I dislike this card. No, I do not think its really overpowered, and I think making uncounterable cards is a good idea, but I am not a fan of this one in particular. Time since release has shown this card isn't that great actually. I just think its not a very fun card to play with or against. It is non-interactive in the same way that the permission decks it was meant to fight are. However, I feel that we still need a few answers to blue hard control floating around, so its better than nothing.
Its just kind of an auto-pilot card against auto-pilot counter decks. Despite my personal dislike for it, I would rather it exist than nothing to perform this duty, I just wish it had a more interesting design. I know this post only covers my negative feelings on it, but I will give it a 4/5.
This is fine even for non-tribal decks just to push through an important creature; on top of further enabling multicolor in said decks.
Mono-color, multicolor, tribal, non-tribal, etc.. creature decks love this.
A better response would be Summoning Trap. Cavern of Souls is stupid.
Even if you ignore the six lands that can kill this, and several blue cards that can steal it, "Can't be countered" doesn't even hose countermagic! Mindbreak Trap, Venser, Shaper Savant and Time Stop will keep the creature from resolving, or you could just steal it with Gather Specimens.
This was a long time coming. I'm only mad at the price tag.