Pointed Discussion

not bad... a major part of the pro circuit nowadays. Zoo/ faeries both run it.

A solid playable card with uses in every format. However, I strongly feel this should have been printed as an uncommon. The comparison this card draws is Duress which is a great common and was heavily played in its time. By printing this at the Rare level rarity, Wizards restricts the number of competitive decks that can successfully evolve due to budget constraints. All in all, it is doubtful that Wizards will ever print a strictly better of Thoughtseize so do what you can to attain a play set.

I gotta say, I think Duress is better. No drawback and you're probably gonna nail a non-creature spell anyway. I also have to disagree that this shoulda been an uncommon. I mean, I'd love it if they made all the power cards uncommon but that just isn't going to happen. Duress should've been an unc or a rare... not the other way around.

Actually since I used to play Duress before, I almost always discarded a creature with Thoughtseize. Something like a Troll Acetic, Chamelleon Collosus or even a Broodmate Dragon if it was later in game.

I Wish I Had 4 Of These Bad Boys Man There Fun And 2 Life Means Nothing If You Grab A Path Or A Hells Thunder Plus You See There Hand On Turn One

I'd say that this is the second best "discard' card, the first being Hymn to Tourach. (And third best being Duress) The problem with late-in-the-game discard cards is that your opponents are most likely Hellbent. Turn four specters will clear their hands, and then turn 5 and beyond they're Hellbent.

Ahh, the cla-ssic "Turn-One Nope."

Thoughtseize is probably superior to Hymn to Tourach, unless you're playing against a simple burn deck or something like that. And it seems to me Duress is better than Hymn, too. And Cabal Therapy works with Thoughtseize/Duress but not Hymn to Tourach.

The best first turn discard spell.

+1 mana, -2 life, +1 card, for those who don't understand math: this thing is balanced to the point a doubt between putting this or duress can actually be thinkable.
And no, no way your going to find any discard better than Hymn to Tourach, now, seen hand is a different story...

Hymn and Thoughtseize are so close in comparison... Hymn wins when it's due to luck (go random pulls!). Overall, you want the choice and the value of seeing the hand is immense. Anything that can hit non-land permanents is great. Black's only answer to artifacts is discard.

This should have been an uncommon for one reason: Distress is Common. It's the exact same effect only you pay 2 life vs B. And I'm having trouble finding scenarios outside of Turn1 in which that cost difference is a major drawback. I still think it IS a strong card for the lower cost, but being an uncommon wouldve made it more real-money-cost-effective. If have to choose between a $40 playset and a $2 playset, well i can put $38 into something else.
And Duress is good, but the "no creatures" restriction limits you against some decks, so it IS a strong common, BUT still a common.

@WER386

What kind of math are you using? Last time I checked keeping a creature from ever hitting the battlefield is worth more than one life.

Getting their Baneslayer Angel out of their hand before the game really even begins is well worth the added 2 life cost.

2 life isn't even a drawback, this is for combo decks that just need to make sure there isn't something to mess up the combo. what's 2 life when you'r about to win?

Arguably the best discard spell out there, followed by hymn to tourach, then duress ( I placed Hymn second, simply because Hymn makes dredge players smile, and goddess knows how popular dredge is ). The only time I'd consider Hymn over Thoughtseize, is against burn.

Not that it would come close to balancing this, but it should be "as an additional cost, pay 2 life" so it can be countered and you still lose the life.

That's not her ear...

This card has too much potential for just B. As it has already been said, the 2 life is almost meaningless when you consider what you get: The opponent reveals their hand to you, and you get to choose any nonland card. A very powerful effect for such a small cost.

I run 4 of these along with 3 duress. I use discard to protect my combo, and given the choice to have durress or thoughtseize in my opening hand, I would prefer thoughtseize every time.

I give this card 5/5 for absurd power level and insane potential.

It's a good card, but....why the hell would i pay $20-$25 dollars for it instead of 50 cents for Inquistion to Kozilek?

@JWalks82: in regards to legacy I totally agree. most threats play at cmc 3 or less in legacy. grabbing a Goyf or Knight of the Reliquary on turn one with Kozilek is awesome! generally this is a better card tho. think Sneak Attack

its good to see there hand turn one and i have not played a deck without something i don't like

Simply the second-best discard spell of all time.

I prefer Distress over this. Sure it's cool to mess up with your enemy in 1st turn, but the card loses it's cost effectiveness in middle and late games.

£19.95 for one black mana. That is one of the cheapest, most expensive cards anyone could play besides Black Lotus and other stuff I forget.

Comparing this to Hymn to Tourach isn't really a good thing to do. Hymn is meant for a discard deck, this is meant for a control (or combo) deck. Two different uses, so no one is better than the other. I don't like discard-decks so much so I would prefer this in my WB or UB control deck.

5/5

In more situations than not, Duress suffices, and that's why I traded my Thoughtsieze at the pre-release for three starter decks. :)

@Daerien: You perv!

Hey, it's like Distress got the New Phyrexia treatment a few blocks early.

As a player since early '94, I have no doubt (even during my youth) seen the game of Magic evolve drastically over the years. But a player would have to lack a philosophical understanding of the game NOT to see this as a 5 STAR card. It is, w/o offering card or mana advantage, the best in the game. I love Inquisition of Kozilek, and understand that depending on ur deck and ur opponents, it COULD BE better... but in a deck where denying a 4 cast being dropped off of the strength of multiple dark rituals, lotus pedals, and the like, or even certain planeswalkers (ie most) This is unrivaled, and as said by someone (sorry don't recall name) earlier on post. It is VERY unlikely a "strictly" better 1-cc 'discard' spell will ever see print.("Tho I could see it 8 10 years down the road...but even THAT is unlikely. Either way, for needing to protect OR dispose of cards... THOUGHTSEIZE is the way to go.

THIRD best discard spell ever...not second.

1 - Hymn to Tourach
2 - Mind Twist
3 - This

I think I'd rather open 30 dollars of Lorwyn boosters than shell for this, TBH :/

Great card. A bit too great. I hate when that happens. I'm not made of money!

Goddamn Modern... this card is up to $30 a piece now. Understandably, since for 2 life it can mean the difference between a hand your opponent took and one they would have mulliganed. Especially painful after they mulligan too haha.

Rated lower then duress because it costs 60X more then it. (according to star city prices)

I personally have to think your stubborn if you find duress better than this, strictly speaking, this hits SO SO much, it's usable against any deck, true inquisition does work better against aggro (decks like merfolk always pack 3 or less costing creatures, in that case, you can side some or all of your thoughtseizes), it doesn't diminish what this card can do. Any discard/pox deck should run 4 if they have access to it

The only thing better than getting a big nasty creature out of someone's hand on the first turn is taking control of it the next.

Guess you'll be getting that 5 life back when you're swinging with their Baneslayer on third turn.

RE-PRINT! Would that be asking too much? =/

Some people say that Inquisition of Kozilek is a better choice than this card, mainly because there is no loss of life. I disagree. Why? 3 words: Force of Will. That card is in TONS of decks in legacy, right? Wouldn't it be nice if your reanimator deck could remove that wrench in your plan?

In other words - turn one: Dark ritual, thoughtseize (grab their force), entomb, reanimate. Done.

Now, go through that exact same scenario, but with inquisition instead of thoughtseize. Still think it's the better card, or did I get you to do the smart thing and jump on the thoughtseize bandwagon?

The prices they charge for some cards is *** ridiculous.

Playset of Duress: $1
Playset of Thoughtseize: $159.96

Would you pay $158.96 so Duress can pick a creature and make you lose 2 life?

@everyone
paleopaladin is RIGHT. And this card....... I really don't see what's so insanely great about it. It's awesome, but not THAT awesome. Maybe I just need to play against it, I dunno. Here come some half star comment ratings for nay-saying a favorite card of the faeries!

Here is why this card is so impressive

a) It has a casting cost of 1 Black Mana (The only improvements would be either 1 colorless or 0)
b) Causes your opponent to discard a card (Ability 1 --> Opponent loses an option)
c) You chose which card your opponent discards (You stab your opponent --> Find the heart --> Shutdown)
d) You get to see your opponents hand for free (Ability 2 --> Plan your strategy)
f) "Thoughtseize" can stop first turn combos
e) "Thoughtseize" combs extremely well with other cards (Bullets "a" through "f")

In my opinion this is Black's "Force of Will".
The loss of 2 life is an attempt to balance this card, but it's still overly efficient.
Furthermore, Lands rarely ever kill vs. everything else.

Why do people think this is broken? It's a very nice card, but its far from broken. It's only as good as the cards you get to pull with it. It's abysmal in certain matchups, and great in others.

Simply a beautifully designed card. Versatile and adaptive. Low cost with a corresponding drawback that fits black. Gorgeous artwork and the best flavor text I've seen in a long while. 5/5

I love this card, it goes so well in my decks!

Damn you targeted discard! I love to hate you thoughtseize. I should have bought my playset when I remember thinking..."20 dollars for a one mana discard, that's ridiculous..."

Combos with 2 life

Rating: 5/5 (one of the best cards ever printed)

And now, my rant:

How is this card not broken?

The "drawback" is losing 2 life and it can only be a nonland card? Oh no.

The nonland part is typical in most discard cards anyway, so no big deal. But the loss of life?

To see just how insignificant of a drawback the loss of life is, let's pretend we switch that drawback with: "Any player may pay 2 life. If a player does, counter Thoughtseize"

Does anyone think:
a) The opponent would not gladly pay the 2 life?
b) This card would still cost over $30?
c) This card would ever see play?

That's right, it'd be another Dash Hopes.

Paying only 2 life for such a powerful ability on the first turn of the game is NOT a drawback, especially when it can deal with your opponents biggest threats on the first turn.

If they ever make a version similar to Thoughtseize that's meant not to be broken, the player playing it should pay 5 life or give the loss of life option to the opponent and have it countered.

/rant

Thoughtseize's price is easy to explain when viewed against Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and considering all the things that make him cost what he does:

1) It's a powerful effect. (there are many of these in Magic, Worldfire being insanely powerful for it's dollar price)
2) It has a low mana cost (ok, there are a lot fewer cards to look at now)
3) Has seen tournament play, AND is a rare/mythic or special promo version of an uncommon or common that shouldn't have been uncommon or common in the first place (say, Demonic Tutor), thus igniting the 'Demand' Factor from many many directions.

4) There is a FOURTH category though, that separates the cards you get with just the other 3 factors (what ''Pro MTG'' writers will talk about because people want to learn how to win) from THE BEST OF MAGIC (what everyone who has ever seen the card in question knows in their heart about it, and will be the cause of why MAGIC will be played long after cards stop getting printed):
Practically 'if you like something/anything about Magic, you at least appreciate cards like THESE, and your only regrets about it are usually termed in your thoughts as 'I would just plain LOVE this card if it weren't for JUST this one thing...." And now we've boiled the list down to Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Maze of Ith, the FTV print of Nicol Bolas, and similar cards like that- things that are just 'wow. if I didn't understand the concept of game balance/the need for commons and basic lands, I'd say all the cards in Magic should be like these, because these are just Made of Awesome Winningness.'

That category is Flavor- Sheer, Stupid, Epic, Ultra Fun. Sweet Dreams are MADE of this stuff. It depends very much on your psychographic whether you think a card fits this or not, and if someone has an 'enemy-colored' psychographic to yours, they probably think the card should be banned, and you would probably say to them 'no, everyone should be allowed to own one of these, I want it to be one of the Oversized Cards in Commander's Arsenal'.

Thoughtseize is a griefer card, but it's from Lorwyn- compare many, many, many griefer cards throughout MAGIC's history, and they tend to play into the ideas of madness, nightmares, or psychic trauma/torture, usually deliberately induced but sometimes simply manifested to the target.

This is the only Black Discard spell I have encountered that I simply do not think of as being about 'Nightmares' as much as I think about it being about 'DREAMS'. This plays deeply into the flavor of the incredibly gifted wonderful artists of classic dark fiction writers like Edgar Allen Poe, HP Lovecraft, the people who wrote about horror and science fiction stories in pulp magazines. While many more modern interpretations of the originals have played up the Monstrous and the Horrifying aspects, and put them in a more dramatic setting and made it look like the Universal Studios Monsters that Innistrad was largely built on, In LORWYN, we see Faeries, BLACK Faeries, who harken back to the ORIGINAL version of these stories- the Dreaminess of them- back when 'phantasmal' and 'fantastic' didn't mean 'ghostly' or 'great', but 'subconscious/psychological' and 'weird/strange'.

If you look at all the other Black Discard effects in Magic, you could easily imagine someone with Nicol Bolas' or Liliana Vess' personality type really relishing getting into the flavor of the spell, and how you are supposed to FEEL when you cast it. While I suppose, on power level and by reason of usefulness of its effect, Thoughtseize would be desired as a weapon by them, I just don't see it as their STYLE. They aren't like the Faeries of Lorwyn. It's nothing at all like Thought Hemorrhage, which is very clearly focused on the owner of the thought, and how much joy their pain gives you. You are thinking more about the target player then about the spells they lose when you look at Thought Hemorrhage's art. With Thoughtseize, just the opposite is true: We can't see the (is it an?) elf's face, except half of their ear- we don't really know who is having their dream stolen at all. We DO see the Dream itself, and we see the faerie taking it, and....it just seems like the focus is entirely different. We wonder what's in that dream. What's in any Dream? What is a Dream?

I see it as something different, nearly unique in Magic. And I think people are drawn just as much to this oddness as a spell that doesn't appear to be so malicious, a spell that might be of ambiguous moral quality, as much as they are drawn to everything else about it. Certainly I don't think Hymn to Tourach will ever be able to compete with it in this regard- Hymn to Tourach, flavorfully, is relatively boring, and reminds me of a simple ritual a bad guy, or a bad guy's minions, from D&D might cast to do something bad to you. Thoughtseize has really...

Seized my Thoughts. :3

In a 1vs1 game, this card is really incredibly effective. In a multiplayer game it´s also still awesome. I don´t think that it´s broken at all, though. It´s just one of these rather rare, very good cards...

I rather don´t like to play it first round though. Like the flavor text of the card already suggests, I think this card comes best, when a game starts to get really interesting and the smell of death is already in the air. Wether you use it to protect your win condition from getting countered or removed, or you use it to let your opponents discard their most precious part of their win condition.

Sometimes, discarding a card even can be the only way to stop something from happening. Like for example, if your opponent has a Decree of Pain in his hand, ready cycle it. This isn´t even able to counter it (at least not with the counters I like to use), and if you only play weeny creatures, like me, then this pretty much can mean your end. This card is very good against such things.

Apart from this, it´s also great to let your opponents discard creatures for your Puppeteer Clique. Or I personally also like to use it to discard enchantments, or artifacts, which I bounced first with my U/B deck, sometimes. U/B is quite weak when it comes to go against artifacts and enchantments, and that´s a little alternative.

I just wish, that it would be a faerie tribal sorcery, to be able to tutor for it with Faerie Harbinger, but except for this, it´s the perfect little discarder spell on the brink.

Hahaha gitaxian probe you pay 2 life look at there hand but don't get to discard... but altleast you get to draw

This should have been an uncommon. No reason to drive up the secondary market just because its different. Protour is going to have 0 budget decks anyways, dont print important utility cards at rare slot.

Also, this card is bad verse RDW. That 2 life matters verse burn, and your likely discarding something that does 3 damage.

I'll add this to the list of cards I'll never get to play with. Right next to Bob and Goyf.

they had a golden opportunity in the new Mirrodin block to improve on this card and maybe even make it uncommon or something

Duroughtseize - B+(Black Phyrexian)

Sorcery

target opponent reveals their hand, choose a nonland card from it, they discard it

functionally the same, except they still lose 2 life if they paid 2 life for the phyrexian part and it gets countered

"Hold that thought!"

$61 avg as of today for 1

I always read this card's text as a poem:

Target player reveals his or her hand
You choose a nonland card from it
That player discards that card...
You lose 2 life.

simply amazing. one of the best cards in the block.

1) Thoughtseize
2) Inquisition of Kozilek
3) Duress
4) Despise
5) Appetite for Brains

I'd say it goes like that out of the 5 1 mana targetted discard spells. They're all useful but some more than others.

To all the folks arguing for Duress instead...Imaging Duressing in legacy and seeing one of these cards in their hand: Emrakul, Griselbrand, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Vendilion Clique, Stoneforge Mystic

...Yeah, sure wish you had a Thoughseize instead huh?

I would like it more if it wasn't, y'know fifty fraking bucks. Unless you can make a good deal, I saw one going for 37USD (120PLN).

Target player reveals his or her hand. You choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card. You lose $50.

It's pretty disappointing that this card isn't in Modern Masters. Maybe it's scheduled to be reprinted in a standard-legal set in the near future? I hope so.

An amazing card... but I'm never going to pay 60 bucks for one when I have so many Inquisition of Kozileks laying around. If the price was closer to Inquisition, then I'd replace it for sure.

Why are so many people complaining about the cost of Thoughtseize? Sure, Thoughtseize isn't all that much stronger than its primary competition, but the cost of cards in Vintage has only a mild correlation with the power of the card in question. Consider the infamous Black Lotus. Is it worth thousands of dollars because putting one in your deck makes your deck thousands of times better than putting in a different card? Certainly not. You can proxy it anyway. It's very expensive because it's rare as hell. Instead you should be asking yourself three things to determine the cost of a Vintage candidate:

1) Is the card playable in Vintage?
2) How strong is the card in Vintage?
And, by far most importantly:
3) How rare is it?

So compare:
Inquisition of Kozilek
1) Is the card playable in Vintage?
- Yes
2) How strong is the card in Vintage?
- Not being able to nail Force of Will knocks off a couple of points, but it can target some things that Duress cannot, such as Dark Confidant.
3) How rare is it?
- Very common.

Duress
1) Is the card playable in Vintage?
- Yes
2) How strong is the card in Vintage?
- Duress can't hit creatures, but most of the time you want other things anyway. It's a solid card in Vintage.
3) How rare is it?
- A common that is regularly reprinted in Core sets makes it about as valuable as those pennies lying on your floor.

Thoughtseize
1) Is the card playable in Vintage?
- Yes
2) How strong is the card in Vintage?
- You're paying 2 life, but that usually doesn't matter so much. Its flexibility in any situation makes it the strongest of these types of cards.
3) How rare is it?
- Very rare. It was a Rare when it was printed (and there were no Mythic Rares when it was printed), it was printed only once in mtg history, and it was printed quite a while ago. Considering its value in Vintage and Legacy, it's going to cost a lot.

In conclusion:
It doesn't take a PhD in Economics to figure out that Thoughtseize is going to be notably more expensive than the other cards. Quit complaining about its price. I doubt you play Vintage anyway.

As a new player, I failed to understand why this card was considered so good. I guess I just valued my life total to much. Years later, I see that 1 mana and 2 life to completely screw someones early game is just rediculous.

I realized a potential reason to like this over Duress, despite my preference. This hitting any non-land helps you reduce sideboard against certain matchups, such as "oops." It's usually a bad duress, but occasionally it'll be more useful.

Inquisition is usually a better choice in legacy however; the the potential to fight *really* mean burn decks. When they can get you T4 easy, and you give them 3 damage off of this and a fetch, you may push it to T3 on accident.

Why is this rated higher than Duress?

@BeatYouOnce: Because it's better than Duress? I don't know, seems obvious to me. 2 life is a small price to pay to take away a Geist of Saint Traft.

This is getting reprinted in Theros?!

Holy crap, that block is going to be pretty crazy.

Also lol at people saying this is a bad Duress. 2 life to be able to hit creatures? 2 life is nothing, and more options instantly make it better in my book.

Pretty much confirmed in Theros. Get ready for a fun two years of Standard.

@DeaTh-ShiNoBi
I think you're getting Vintage and Legacy mixed up. This is much more a Legacy card than a Vintage card. And a cards playability/popularity in Legacy, Modern, and Standard impact it's price much more than it's use in vintage. Of course, Vintage cards are usually expensive for collector's reasons.

As for the card, it's good. In competitive games against aggro decks, I almost always prefer Inquisition of Kozilek though. The fact your not losing life can actually really matter against an aggro deck. And for the most part, every card run by an aggro deck can be hit by Inquisition.

Of course, where this card really shines is against control and combo. Where in Legacy, control decks usually run relevant threats that Inquisition can't hit. Such as Big Daddy Jace, Force of Will, Batterskull, ect.

Despite all I've said in this post though, the truth is this card is 40+ USD for a reason. It's an all star in most any competitive deck with even a splash of . It can be used effectively by an aggro, combo, or control deck, and can be used effectively to combat an aggro, combo, or control deck. And that's in Modern and Legacy, the two most popular non-rotating formats. This card is really, really, versatile. And versatile is good.

Also, rumor says this will be reprinted in Theros, so let's cross our fingers.

So glad this is getting reprinted in Theros--I might actually be able to afford a playset now! Barring that, there's a good chance I can unwrap one on once it's released.

Reprinted in Theros (stating the obvious) hence the huge price dip in this. However it is unlikely it will dip further than $20 (at the best a $15 I'd guess), because it's the best discard in Modern, and the 2nd best discard in the whole game behind Hymn to Tourach. Inquisition of Kozilek is the "light" version of Thoughtseize. It's a very good card still, but lives in the shadow of its 'big brother'.

not the storm crow, take the mind sculptor instead please...

It's good. That much should be obvious from the rating and the price tag. However, I still feel like this is in 2nd place for best 1-mana discard spell, just behind Cabal Therapy. Not going to enjoy seeing this in Standard for the next two years. 4.5/5