Pointed Discussion

InB4 ranting that this isn't counterspell

isn't counterspell

I really don't think some people get that a double-blue costing "hard answer" (as though a {B} costing thoughtseize wasn't even "harder", not to mention faster, and requiring less finesse) to anything in the game that sets you back two turns in natural tempo if you want to actually use it (unless you build a deck of nothing but flash cards, instants, and manlands, which would be a deserved reward for building around the card as anything in magic) was ALREADY perfectly balanced. If someone were to ask me for my least favorite card in magic, my answer would be Cancel, because debuffing the inherent awesomeness of blue should NOT include spiking up the mana cost of one of it's most iconic, balanced, cards.
I cannot believe that some people here are saying stuff like "but what if they reprinted ancestral recall for {1}{U}? Would you be complaining then?" Actually, yes, that would be overpowered - it's not an answer and it doesn't require in-game thought, good deck design, or timing (draw it, play it, three for one advantage, OVERPOWERED).
However, EVERYONE should be complaining about Cancel (or more specifically, the replacement of counterspell with cancel). Just like runeclaw bear, it wasn't necessary, doesn't offer anything new or improved, and actually kind of ruins something integral to what it was trying to replace - in runeclaw's case, the flavor, in cancel's case, the functionality.
Cancel the Cancels already, wizards!

Sincerely, Old Fogey

If I'm remembering this right, they're not reprinting Counterspell not because it's necessarily unbalanced, but because it isn't fun. It made some players feel like they were cut out of playing the game or something.

I'm not myself certain whether I consider Counterspell fun, but it seems odd that Jace, the Mind Sculptor was considered acceptable using the same reasoning. I can't remember ever having much fun playing games where my opponent had one on the table.

@Fictionarious & @ Gelzo: damn straight !

Is it really difficult to design another 3 or 4 mana costed counterspell? People sick and tired of Cancel like, let me count, 4 years...

Cancel is an unacceptable replacement for Counterspell - which in the current standard environment is NOT AT ALL overpowered.

Reverberate, Silence, & Autumn's Veil are are recent & DIRECT answers to blue control, none of which have any drawback, and all cost 2 or less.

Why is blue being punished for being awesome :(

@Fictionarious seen Visions of Beyond? Recall's back...

@luca_barelli People said the same thing about Lightning Bolt, and like I pointed out, there are answers in every color (excluding black) in standard. I fail to see how it isn't balanced.

If I have to spend 4 mana on Demolish instead of Stone Rain then you have to spend 3 mana on a hard counter.

Worse than Stoic Rebuttal, with which it shares the same standard environment. I don't want Counterspell back, but it would be nice to see a card that gives interesting options or works with a certain kind of deck rather than just a strictly worse variation.

Eh, can't complain about a hard counter.
Thing is: I disagree with those saying Counterpell needs a reprint, but I agree when they say Cancel isn't an acceptable replacement.
Hard counters are (against everything I like in MTG) a good thing.
They help balance the game in an infinite number of ways.
Things like Mana Leak (most cases it's a hard counter, but it can sometimes be overcome), Deprive (hard counter that returns a land to your hand, which has been shown as a combo enabler itself), or Stoic Rebuttal (hard counter, but is cheaper under certain conditions) are exceptional.
to stop a player from doing anything is harsh.
When there are conditional counters that are actually decent, I can approve of those.
I feel that the delicate line between Counterspell and Cancel should be where they print counterspells.
Till we get it right, though, I'd rather see this piece of junk floating around over something that's just outright mean to use.
(P.S. Let's just all come together and agree, that at least they won't reprint Mana Drain. See? We can all get along on some things.)

Oh not this sh*t again. Counterspell is NOT COMING BACK. Others have already explained why better than I ever could.
EDIT: blugrn, you defend your points well. Let's see Dark Ritual back in standard, then we'll talk.

I'll never get over how bad cancel is. That said, I'm not remotely interested in buying an entirely new card collection every two years to play standard, so it's not a big deal. Conditional counterspells just aren't very good in casual play because you never see the same deck more than once, so if you want counter you need a hard counter. And counterspell, forbid, and many others just do it better than cancel does.

reprint counterspell already!!

I've been on the fence for a long time about this Counterspellvs. Cancel issue. Is Counterspell unbalanced or unfun? I think a pretty sizable number of people would say it isn't unbalanced. As for fun, that's entirely subjective. It's never fun to have a big play countered, but it isn't like either spell counters things any less. It doesn't make that much of a difference in casual games, because that's where all the big, expensive, flashy spells see play; it makes hardly any difference at all in a drawn out casual game whether it's Cancel or Counterspell doing the work. There's going to be lots of mana on both sides of the table anyway. In Standard, the only place where the 2 vs. 3 mana cost is actually relevant, Mana Leak basically is Counterspell, except that it's less blue-heavy. Furthermore, Standard is typically more about winning than fun. As a side note, I've never found it very fun to be unable to play a creature with 3 or less toughness because it's just going to eat a Lightning Bolt.

Any good, relevant, effective card is going to generate controversy. I want to see Counterspell reprinted, because I want a few copies. And frankly, I don't feel like paying upwards of a dollar each for a common.

Couldn't they have made it ? At least then it wouldn't be strictly worse than Counterspell. I was running these in my Mono Blue Control Deck for a while but that difference makes such a difference early game in blue. I took them out for Mana Leaks, Deprives, and Negates.

@lorendorky:
"If I have to spend 4 mana on Demolish instead of Stone Rain then you have to spend 3 mana on a hard counter."

I'm not of the mind that Counterspell should return, but that's nowhere near a fair comparison. Demolish costs 1 more than Stone Rain because it does something Stone Rain can't. So while probably a worse card, it's not strictly worse. Cancel is Counterspell that costs more. That's it. If it were {U}{U}{1} "Counter target spell OR draw a card," you would have a case. But it's not. So you don't.

For another red example, look at all the rage over Incinerate replacing Lightning Bolt as the red instant 3-damage-anywhere spell. Incinerate costs {1} more, and is a worse card, but it still gets you something the iconic Alpha staple didn't to make up for it (a little). Cancel doesn't. It's just worse.

So if a not-strictly-worse version of such a classic and critical card can lead to that much (not unjustified, perhaps) moaning, it's understandable that people would be less than thrilled with a yes-this-is-just-a-worse-in-every-way version of the card that just got its fifth printing in three years (seventh in the last five). Especially when there's a strictly better version out there in standard.

Can someone tell my why a creature is a spill? i was bind side with that today .

I'm still surprised that they didn't use Dissipate as the standard 1UU counterspell. I know it's a bit different than Cancel, but I think it has a better name and overall a better feel to what a spell should do to stop another spell. Honestly I would think they are only about a half star difference in power, and their effects could mean nothing or a whole lot depending on very specific effects. So, I would think that Dissipate would have been the better choice.

Still, I grew up on Cancel so I think it's very fair regardless. About the best example of a middle line card there is. 3.5 out of 5.

this thing got reprinted...once again...
i don't ask for counterspell to come back, you want to make harder to cast counters? why not add an utility effect or a modal effect to this thing, Wizards? i would be pleased to drop my couple of counterspells for a nice utility/counter card, but its sure i won't drop them for something like THIS

really, STOP PRINTING THIS

As a long time magic player, I can see both sides of the argument here and quite honestly, I'm not sure what side of the fence I'm on...even though my vintage control blue deck costs over $5,000 going by today's deck prices.

While this deck rarely loses (mana drain, counterspell, force of will, etc.) it's really kind of boring to play. My opponent essentially can't do anything, and even if they DO get a creature out, my man-o'war pops it right back in his hand or my control magic takes it next turn.

The "fun", as people call it, is really gone on both sides of the table. I don't know about you but games that I know I'm going to win even before I start playing bore me. I like a challenge. And when NOT playing that deck and going up against it in some form, well, it's just not fun to not be able to play any of your spells.

Counterspell in standard is obviously not as powerful as it is in other formats, but it's still 2cmc to counter any spell with NO drawbacks. Yeah, I know...all us old timers remember those days and take them for granted. When counterspell first was removed we were like WTF?

Get over it. WOTC is NOT bringing counterspell back...not now...not ever. I won't get into all the reasons why because others have already explained it. That second turn is so key to so many turn 2 plays in standard and counterspell would literally wreck a good portion of the environment with a hard counter that has NO drawbacks. Deprive is a great card in the environment. You get a hard counter for 2 but have to return a land. Of course as of September, Deprive will be out of standard anyway.

Mana Leak is fine early game but late game is pretty much a dead draw.

The rest, such as negate (non creature) and psychic barrier (creature) are just too conditional to be truly effective as main board cards, at least IMO.

But this is what we're left with folks. Bitching about it isn't going to change things.

Don't like what standard has to offer as far as blue control?

Play something else. It's that simple.

Yes, cancel is a strictly worse card...on purpose...as the powers that be felt that counterspell was too strong.

Unless you've played at the other side of the table against those annoying blue control decks, you can't possibly understand why.

And like somebody else said...at least they didn't reprint Mana Drain or (I'm adding this) Force of Will

Don't complain. Red runs out of gas. Black eventually runs out of removal. Green runs out of creatures. White topdecks the wrong cards and has no reach whatsoever if it gets wrathed. I think it's completely fair for Blue to have a limited supply of efficient hard counters in a given format. I'm happy running exactly 1 of these in my standard deck because it's the one card that trumps most things when my Mana Leaks are dead and my Deprives are used up. And it's premium foil, so it's darn pretty no matter how much mana it costs.

I like running cancel. I run this over mana leak because late game mana leak is a dead draw. This is never a dead draw and can be used vs anything. We get that its strickly worse then counterspell, people can count to 3 ya know? But its still a good card. Not because allot of things are better, but because its a hard counter and can stop nearly anything your opponent throws at you. No matter what the situation, 3 mana open u can deal with it. Plus i think cancel has more flavor then counterspell and way beter art.

The card I loathe the most. Bring counterspell back for Modern, a format in need of better control decks.

5 stars for the Card Crusher meme reference (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/card-crusher#.TmiCmM2yBhV)

It seems that cancel sucks too much and counterspell is apparently too powerful. So how do you get between and without unglued shenanigans?
How bout
Spelljack
Counter target spell.
Add to your mana pool.

or maybe just
Deny
Counter target spell.

we get dissapate in innistrad.

I prefer this to Counterspell.

Look with M12 us red players have to deal with shock indead of lightning bolt, so you blues can live with one extra mana

Not as good as Mana Leak, usually better than Negate. Almost always worse than Dissipate.
The card is growing on me, I'll admit, but I don't find myself playing it.

To a Vintage or Legacy player, this is utter GARBAGE.

We already had the much better Counterspell and Dissipate-
this card has no place unless you just *have* to have more counterspells.
Useful as another Counterspell in Singleton, but you won't catch me using it anywhere else.

Wizards has some nerve sweeping the very essence of Blue under the rug.
I'm not playing Standard or Modern until they have the decency to exile this and return the original.
I've watched them water down Blue (har har) ever since they overdid it in Urza Block,
and I'm not going to stand for it any more.
You can find me over in the Vintage sandbox,
where Blue still reigns.

Twincast and Redirect are nice concessions,
but I haven't lost sight of what Blue *really* needs to be strong again.

"To a Vintage or Legacy player, this is utter GARBAGE."

This card isn't MEANT for Vintage and Legacy.

And is Mana Leak not good enough for you?!

This card isn't too weak, it's just a more 'fair' version of Counterspell. Mana Leak may seem better, considering it has the same function, but in some situations it's better to use Cancel. Negate and Essence Scatter are pretty decent as well, but if you don't know what your opponent's going to be playing, it's better to use Cancel(Unless you're playing infect, in that case, it's better to use Corrupted Resolve). Sure, Mana Leak's quite decent, but against ramp decks, they're pretty much useless. Counterspell just kinda takes the fun out of the game, considering how little it costs.

I must say, I love the feel of the Core Set Cancel. It's very simple. The picture, the centering of the rules text, and the lack of flavor text really gives me a feeling of simplicity. When this card hits the table, it just says, "NO. I do not allow that. You can't get around it by paying extra mana (Mana Leak and Frightful Delusions). You cannot do anything I don't want you to.

EDIT: @drpvfx: I, for one, as a player of ANY COLOR BESIDES BLUE (mainly Red and Black), am glad that they no longer give Blue every new ability, and allow it to be THE BEST color on the wheel. I know you miss the old days, but the rest of us do not, and will rue the day when blue becomes the most powerful, coddled color again. May that day never come to pass.

I guess it's better than Counterspell if your opponent has a Spell Snare.

All non-Blue players: "WAAAH WE DON'T HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL CAPACITY TO GET AROUND COUNTERSPELL PLEASE NERF IT WAAAAH"

Wizards: "All right, all right, shut up already. We'll dumb down Magic: the Gathering just for you. Jeez."

All non-Blue players: "YAAAY NOW WE GET TO PLAY THE SAME METATYPES OVER AND OVER AGAIN"

Anyone that actually enjoyed playing Blue: "...what the hell, man? Thought this was a game that required brains for thinking creatively. It's not now?"

Seriously, little tired of seeing Blue get continuously nerfed just because a sizable portion of M:tG players don't have the brainpower to get around it. Blue, when done properly, is supposed to inspire creative thought. Or, at least, it did once upon a time...

Has anyone thought about spells like this?

2GG Brute Force
Rare
Instant
Counter target countering spell. Its target and Brute Force can't be countered.

/trollface

The difference between {1}{U}{U} and {U}{U}, for those who are asking, is actually quite big.

The difference between 1 mana.. is 1 turn. 1 turn you have to wait to stop a spell from coming out. 1 turn you have to wait to stop the flow of your opponents cards.

And speaking of flow, 1 mana ruins your flow as well. 2 mana can be played with 2 cards to counter 2 spells for a total of 4 mana spent. Now there is a 1 mana difference between those, and although it is a 2 card difference in your hand, it is also a 2 card difference in your opponents hand. One more turn where nothing has happened. Something control craves and aggro/combo can't stand.

Going simply by counterspell, the difference in the mana weight would be massive. Counterspell would require 4 blue to this cards 2. But counterspell isnt really used in any format right now due to lack of legality/ being beat out by far better cards (mana drain). Though, with mana leak, now its just 1 generic mana more and no tempo loss.

Why is Thalia scary in standard right now? She is scary because cards like mana leak become... this. 3 CMC, making an opponent lose a turn and not control for a turn, allowing faster tactics to find a way in.

In a few years, one of two things will have happened:
1. Wizards gives in and brings back cheap counters, making this look foolish.
2. Wizards continues to print interesting counters that make this seem fairly costed. It would be relatable to the relationship between Demonic Tutor and Diabolic Tutor; "Yes, Counterspell was great because it was so cheap, but the current incarnation of the game doesn't need counters that are that cheap."

The way I see it, either direction seems reasonable. We have cheap counters with drawback like Mana Leak, as well as expensive but interesting counters such as Counterlash.

The point I'm trying to make is, both Counterspell and this are stepping stones. Counterspell was too high above the curve, and this is too low. The ultimate result will be a well-costed counter that fits evenly into the game.

Card Crusher disapproves of your spells.
Hey, a counter's a counter, and this does the job for what it is. In formats that allow it, you're better off with the old standby, Counterspell. If you're playing or , Undermine and Voidslime are vastly superior.

The strange thing is...my opponent seems to get just as mad when I CANCEL his/her spells than when I COUNTERSPELL them. Its a hard counter, so even with way better cards like DISSIPATE out there, it doesn't change the fact that their spell gets countered and they get mad and I win.

You know what would fix this, since everyone can agree it's bad.
Fixed Cancel
Counter Target Spell. Draw a card at the beginning of your next turn's upkeep.

or

Counter target spell. Scry 1.

Does it look to anyone else like he's countering his own spell?

@swords_to_exile: You're a time traveler. Dissolve.