Pointed Discussion

4/5 stars for a very fun counterspell variant. Although it seems a little weak, it can help you save your own spells from being countered. Plus you can delay a spell for when you get a counter to deal with it (or when a card like Ertai untaps again). And using it on something like a Counter Spell effectively counters it. Using it on something like Shock is very beneficial, since if you can remove all your legal targets (i.e. yourself with something like Ivory Mask), your opponent has to use it on themselves or their creature(s). Quite fun.

First Printed version**
When target spell is successfully cast, put X delay counters on it. X cannot be 0.
During each upkeep of that spell's caster, remove a delay counter from the spell. If the spell has no delay counters on it, it resolves. ** first it just says delay then that spell resolves which indicates put it in the appropriate graveyard, BUT now look at the NEW wording

Target spell's controller exiles it with X delay counters on it. (target spell is "exiled" now pay attention)
At the beginning of EACH of that player's upkeeps, if that card is exiled, remove a delay counter from it. If the card has no delay counters on it, he or she puts it onto the stack as a copy of the original spell. as i read this the original spell is still exiled and a copy of that spell resolves EVERY UPKEEP it doesn't say anything else about this effect stopping

this is my as$umption please correct me

To BioPrince:

What you're saying won't work. The second paragraph of the oracle text refers to the card. The card is put on the stack as a copy of what it was originally cast as. Once it goes on to the stack, it is no longer in exile.

Ah, the precursor to Suspend.

The whole bit about "as a copy of the original spell" is just meant to restore the original chosen values (e.g. the value of X), additional casting costs paid (e.g. kicker costs), modal choices, etc.

@Morgrath:
Precursor to Delay, specifically. I'd generally call Ertai's Meddling the worse of the two, especially since X cannot be 0. It still could be used to delay a spell for only one or two turns while you board-wipe. Much like a Greater Gargadon/Equipoise/Sands of Time combo.

The question I have is: Is it cast immediately after the last delay counter is removed, or only when you cannot remove a delay counter? Hey, it's the vanishing-versus-fading difference all over again! Anyways, I suspect that the former is the case, which would justify not letting X be 0.

Ertai's is worse than Delay for other reasons, too. For example, when the spell has no delay counters, it is put onto the stack, as opposed to the suspend mechanic which casts it. That's a lot of Arcane Laboratory/Rule of Law synergy gone.

For all you people saying delay is better, READ. Delay needs to counter a spell. This can pretty much save you or at least buy you some time from ANY spell, except for split second.

The art is great.

Take THAT, Time Stop!

Cards like this are the reason I play red/green.

Counterspelling a Wrath of God or similar effect with this card at a multiplayer free for all game is priceless, it becomes a death sentence for the caster.

Ragamander: The way it works is that you have to do each step in order EVERY time the trigger happens. So you check the if statement then. "Remove a counter" Ok, done. "Does it have any counters left?" Nope. "Ok, go ahead and put it on the stack." Ok!

X can't be 0 simply because it would be the exact same as X being 1, which could lead to mild confusion.

THE GOLDEN RULE: WHAT IS PRINTED ON THE CARD MAKES THE RULES!!

Orical doesn't get it, and it makes me mad!!!
When you cast this spell, the spell says on the stack:
"When Target spell is sucessfully Cast put X delay counters on it. X cannot be 0"
"During the upkeep of that spell's caster, remove a delay counter from the spell. If it has no delay counters on it the spell resolves."

Which means that it is always on the stack all the time.
That means: It can be targeted as a spell buy other spells.
--Time Stop does remove it too.
--It can be countered at anytime by anyone, but cannot be delt damage before it resolves(if it is a creature).
--It can be copied anynumber of times buy any number of sorces for X number of turns.
--It never left to exile, it is still a morph creature and it will still morph as normal (if it gets
Desertion ed then the morph ability comes with you.)
--any counters on the card are also remembered and any kicker or multi kicker costs are also remebered.
--But you can't Suddenly change targets for a spell when it resolves either.

Lets say you cast Swords to Plowshares and you cast Ertia's Meddling for X=6. then you can use the abiltiy of Izznet Guildmage for those six turns: during his turn, during your turn, durning any part of any turn.

Lets say your opponet casts Disintregrate for X=12, and you cast Ertia's Meddling for X=6. Now you have six turns to get a Twin Cast and an Izznet Guildmage. We won't discuss the amount of damage YOU are gonna do to the poor guy over the NEXT 6 TURNS.
You can use your own direct damage card like Incinerate.

Sorry Orical, but the text on the card WINS HANDS DOWN!!!

The way I read it is that both if-clauses trigger at the beginning of the player's upkeep. So it will not go to stack the turn last counter is removed because the second if-clause didn't trigger at the beginning of the upkeep and it's way past the beginning of the upkeep when the first if-clauses trigger removes the last counter.

Pardon me but what's the use of this card? Let's say you paid 3 mana for it thus 2 delay counters. After two turns, the spell resolves. Ok fine, this will buy you some time but... umm... what's the point? If i wanted to counter a spell i would just use counterspell for 2 mana. Hell... even if cancel sucks to most people i would still use it over this card. I just don't get it.

This is a terrible counterspell, i'd still prefer cancel over this. Dumb card, it's a precursor to suspend but that's it. Fun or not, it's very useless.

If i'm totally wrong please just enlighten me because all i'm reading is that the spell gets delayed for x number of turns and then it resolves. Why not just cancel it? The card gets countered definitely unlike this card which just delays it. 1/5 for me, sorry but this is pretty much what i see in it.


EDIT: Scratch that, I can see a use for it although not always very useful. I'll bump it to a 3.0.

KitsuneWarlock- Actually, removing the original target leads the spell to fizzle, because the targets have to be the same as the first time it was cast (note the "As a copy of the original spell")

@ToesOfKrosa
Ninjas are silent, ninjas are deadly. But ninjas aren't always smart. This one is either particularly ignorant, or was hired by R&D's Secret Lair to cause chaos.

Eon Hub seems fun here...

@sumbling1:

I actually have to agree with PhyreNinja. Here's why:

1) HE (or she) IS A FREAKIN' NINJA!!!

2) The question isn't what gives this ninja authority. The question is how Wizards would take it away.

3) Why don't we just look at the card? No oracle is going to convince me that something right in front of my face isn't there. Not one from Mul Daya, not one from Delphi, and certainly not one from The Coast.

4) Did you see number one?



@Kryptnyt:

May I refer back to number two? And with R&D's Secret Layer out, PhyreNinja is definitely right.

Correct me if I'm wrong here... But according to the original text. Not only would the targeted spell remain on the stack for several turns, but so would all the other spells that would have resolved after it.

EX, sum1 casts doom blade, you respond w/ regenerate. Your opponent follows up with this. Doom blade and regenerate would be on hold. Regenerate because of ertais meddling, and doom blade because it would have to resolve after regenerate.

@Phyreninja
Even if your disintegrate stayed on the stack, Izzet Guildmage would never be able to copy it unless X=1, when x=12 Disintegrate's converted mana cost would be 13.

Apparently no one realizes that back then, (note the card type being interrupt), there was no such thing as "the stack" spells could only be responded to by "interrupts" and "mana sources". there was even a special time period reserved for regeneration, i.e. the moment the creature would die.

The reason the oracle text exists is to keep all cards (minus un-cards) up to date with the current rulings, that's why Mindslaver doesn't have its mana burn clause anymore. For those of you not in the know, mana burn was life loss cause by having mana in your mana pool at the end of a phase or turn, it was removed to simplify the game and create design space.

Trying to play with the old wording via the secret lair makes this card terrible, because the only point at which a spell is "successfully cast" nowadays is when it has resolved. Otherwise it's simply cast.

The third official ruling says "Ertai's Meddling can't be cast through any way that doesn't pay its mana cost." WHAT ABOUT ERTAI'S MEDDLING???

So if you use this on for example a Reckless Waif, does that mean once it hits the battlefield it can never transform?

This used to freeze a spell on the stack and prevented it from resolving at interrupt speed. What a freaking nightmare lol...

Got 3 things on the stack? Freeze the last spell in and there all stuck... LOL

@Everyone who claims according to the original wording, the spell remained on the stack: You do realize that the stack was only introduced in 6th Edition, roughly a year post-Tempest? Admittedly, I'm not firm enough in the old "batch" rules, but I'm reasonably sure the spell did not remain targetable. Oracle wording, unless it corrects some drastic mistake, tries to emulate the effect the old wording provided as closely as possible.
So, what SnafinTurtle said. Better than myself.

@MarlinFlake: I'd say definitely yes. The ability to transform is anchored in the white side of Reckless Waif, and that is exactly copied. The weird rule with Morph creatures is because casting creatures with Morph removes their unique identity. At the time of casting a creature face-down, the spell knows nothing of the face-up side. A transformer spell knows about its Night side.

Concerning the "Vanishing vs. Fading" debate. I'm pretty sure it's "Vanishing". Ertai's Meddling sets up a delayed triggered effect. At the beginning of the spell's controller's upkeep, the effect triggers, and the first if-clause checks if the spell is still exiled. If so, it then tries to remove a delay counter, and after doing so (independent of being successful or not), still in the same process, the second if-clause comes into play, and it checks if there are still any delay counters on the card. This is all done in one swing, and the second if-clause is not "long after the beginning of the upkeep".

Let's say you cast Ertai's Meddling with X={2}.
During the controller's first upkeep:
- Check: Is the spell exiled? Yes.
==> Remove a delay counter. (Does so.)
- Check: Are there no delay counters on the spell? No!
==> Do nothing else, continue.

Second upkeep:
- Check: Is the spell exiled? Yes.
==> Remove a delay counter. (Does so.)
- Check: Are there no delay counters on the spell? Yes!
==> Put a copy of the spell on the stack preserving any {X}, kicker costs, buyback, flashback etc.

Third upkeep (and all the rest during this game):
- Check: Is the spell exiled? No. Which spell do you mean?
==> Do nothing, continue.

I hope this explanation makes sense.

Hoses counter-spells, some conditional removal, creatures they may need (especially with Flash.) I'm sure there are other neat circumstances one could use it in; such as:

Case a spell with storm, the copies are created
Cast this with one counter on it
Counter the storm spell with Remand next turn to start another storm count (it comes back to your hand and you draw a card. If your first combo attempt didn't work, try try again!)

Teferi's Meddling
Instant
X can't be 0.
Target spell’s controller exiles it with X time counters on it. If it doesn’t have suspend, it gains suspend. (At the beginning of its owner's upkeep, remove a time counter from that card. When the last is removed, the player plays it without paying its mana cost. If it's a creature, it has haste.)

This can do some interesting things that none of other true counterspells can do. Like manipulate Abrupt decay, supreme verdict, volcanic fallout, last word, and others

"This may be a little counter-intuitive"
Wizards
10-4-2004

Hmm, this gives me an idea -

Play your time-stretch, postpone its casting for a turn, and then when your mana is untapped utilize a fork or twincast and izzet guildmage (on the fork or twincast) to give yourself a ridiculous number of turns :D

This is the only card in all of magic that can target a spell of your choice and exile it. Completely awesome. It has no real uses except in EDH, but it can really stop that Boseiju-fueled warp world, or *** someone off that tried to use a list ditch effort Banefire to kill you. And, of course, I'm sure everyone loves playing around a decree of annihilation that's been suspended to come out in ten turns.

(U)

It's like a proto-Delay!

@EternalLurker & @Ragamander
Ertai's is not worse than Delay. They are two different spells with two different uses. Use Delay with an Abusive Father or your Personal Lab or the Storm spell of your choice; use Ertai's to fight the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Saying that Delay is better is like saying that Natural Order is better than Tinker - it's comparing apples to oranges.

@gollygeegod
"This is the only card in all of magic that can target a spell of your choice and exile it"
Mindbreak Trap, and to a lesser extent Nivmagus Elemental.

"It has no real uses except in EDH"
A pseudo-counter that can avoid "can't be countered" always has a use for maintaining control in EDH.