Just curious -- how does this card work with cascade?
erozion
★★★★☆ (4.5/5.0)(14 votes)
(Originally posted by Ahlyis in the Wizards Rules Q&A Forum)
Cascade does two things. First, it let's you find a card with a CMC less than that of the spell with Cascade. The CMC of Lotus Bloom is 0, so as long as the spell with cascade has a CMC greater than 0, the Lotus Bloom qualifies.
Second, it lets you play the found non-land card without paying it's mana cost. This lets you bypass the unpayable {} mana cost of the Lotus Bloom.
You can play a Lotus Bloom off of a Cascade just fine.
GrimGorgonBC
★★☆☆☆ (2.5/5.0)(6 votes)
I pulled this last week at a card shop!!:) and the "timeshifted card was akroma!!!
klaff
★★★★☆ (4.5/5.0)(8 votes)
@Tezz You have to suspend it. You cannot play a spell without a casting cost from your hand, it may not say this on the card text, but it says so in the rule book..
Ritius
★★★★☆ (4.4/5.0)(7 votes)
This is an amazing card with a Second Sunrise combo. It's gotta be one of the coolest lotus reprints, since its balanced but exploitable, which is how all good mtg cards should be.
BillyBullshot
★★★☆☆ (3.8/5.0)(3 votes)
OH EXPLOITABLE
LeoKula
★★★★☆ (4.6/5.0)(11 votes)
I like this toned down version of Black Lotus, as much as I like Ancestral Vision.
iTog
★★★★☆ (4.5/5.0)(12 votes)
From the comprehensive rules:
"202.3a The converted mana cost of an object with no mana cost is 0."
Cascade states you need (702.82a) "a nonland card whose converted mana cost is less than this spell’s converted mana cost. You may cast that card without paying its mana cost."
Lotus Bloom has an unpayable cost, and according to 116.6a, "If an alternative cost is applied to an unpayable cost, including an effect that allows a player to cast a spell without paying its mana cost, the alternative cost may be paid."
So you can cast Lotus Bloom with the alternative cost provided by Cascade, exactly as you do with that provided by Suspend:
"When you remove the last , cast it without paying its mana cost."
Tezz
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(5 votes)
so you cant just play this normally? you have to suspend? it doesnt say that...
edit: i fail
Omenchild
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(3 votes)
Haha I love how PrimeSonic's response will probably stay here until the end of time, as a symbol of his unknowing of the rules.
Elthan
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(1 vote)
You can transmute this out with Master Transmuter, right?
djbon2112
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(4 votes)
I just noticed something: Since this has suspend, when it casts itself it does so in the Upkeep. Does that not mean its mana is basically useless?
ray_juped
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Um, you get the mana whenever you tap and sacrifice it, so it's not useless.
Biems
★★★★☆ (4.6/5.0)(7 votes)
Can't Tezzeret the Seeker put this card out from your deck for free?
GrimjawxRULES
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(1 vote)
Would someone care to explain why this is rated higher than the Beta Black Lotus?
Richard_Hawk
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
@GrimjawxRULES because the is at a fair enough price and power that people can get their hands on. i got this from a Time Spiral TP, great pull.
Abusable with Tezzeret, the Seeker, as Biems had said.
Boakes2047
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
I still don't see how this is really all that much more balanced.
Black Lotus gave you a huge mana advantage for first turns, ect. You practically took 3 extra turns in 1 go from it. This does the exact same thing, except if its in your opening hand, you get it 3 turns later. Its still the same effect and if you didn't win from that boost later on, you're doing it wrong.
Still a 5/5 though.
cathode01
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Horribly abusable with Salvaging Station. Each creature that hits the 'yard untaps the station and lets you pop your lotus bloom back into play.
Cuervo_
★★☆☆☆ (2.0/5.0)(6 votes)
Giving you THREE mana seems like overkill... Especially when you only need two for storm crow...
kiseki
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
So incredibly synergistic with dragonstorm. In the era of Ravnica/Timespiral Standard, this won a lot of games, including first place at Worlds. Three of these, a dragonstorm and four Bogardan Hellkites in your deck was all you needed to win.
Purple_Shrimp
★☆☆☆☆ (1.7/5.0)(11 votes)
strictly better than Black Lotus, same cmc and it has an added ability
drpvfx
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
One of the most generally useful Black Lotus replacements.
Add in the fact there *are* a few ways of exploiting this card, and you have a winner.
WarioMan
★★★★☆ (4.3/5.0)(8 votes)
Let me get this straight. Word for word, it's a Black Lotus in any and all uses, and all I have to do is wait until turn 3 to use it? An Alpha Black Lotus goes for about $3,700 and this thing's $6.50. I think 3 turns of lag is worth saving $3,693.50 to me.
Veovis25
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Can someone say Salvaging Station =D
Hermeezey
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Black Lotus is 3-mana on turn one, this is 3 mana on turn three. That already slows down one-turn combo decks considerably, allowing other decks enough time to respond. On-top of that, the reason Black Lotus is selling at 3,000+ is because all one-turn combo decks need to win on turn-one or turn-two and Black Lotus has collector's value since it was printed in the very first set and extremely hard to find in the first place. Its like how people would pay 100K+ for a vintage muscle car from the 60s even though a 2012 honda civic costs 20K and is half-a-century more advance.
iHARBiNG3R
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Wait, so this is a turn 4, 3 lands of any choice for no cost and its only like $7 and legal on all formats?!?!? 0.o Opening hand with 2-3 of these would be crazy.
Missile_Penguin
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(4 votes)
Every card in Time Spiral was a throwback to at least one previously printed card.
This card references Magic's most iconic card, Black Lotus and is part of a cycle of rares featuring the Suspend mechanic and having no mana cost, forcing you to suspend them as the primary way to cast them. The cards all callback to one of the color's most powerful spells ever; the others are Ancestral Vision, Wheel of Fate, Hypergenesis, Living End, and Restore Balance.
As these cards have no mana cost, they must be suspended to be played from your hand, but abilities such as Cascade treat these cards as if their converted mana cost is 0, allowing you to skirt around suspend and play them immediately!
Stanislav Cifka won the Pro Tour Return to Ravnica on the back of this particular card as part of the combo deck called "Second Breakfast." Through Suspend or sneaking it into play using Reshape, Cifka's deck used the massive mana of the Lotus Blooms in combination with Second Sunrise and Faith's Reward and artifacts which draw cards when sacrificed to draw through his deck. He famously won the final game of the event keeping a hand with two Lotus Blooms and no lands in it at all! Coverage can be found here: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptrtr12/welcome
DarthParallax
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(1 vote)
This card's converted mana cost should NOT be 0. :P It should be Undefined.
I would like card's to be 'balanced but exploitable' whenever possible, but the 'CMC = 0' Hack just seems....a little bit wrong to me. It makes Eggs Decks and creepy tricks with Cascade Possible....
and I'm not saying that in House Rules Casual, that is a bad thing...but I would prefer that Reshape not become a 2-mana Tinker is all. Really, seriously, it because I think Reshape is being abused in ways against the intentions of its Design and Development, because Lotus Bloom is the -only- Artifact Without a Mana Cost I know of, and of course it just HAS TO be a BLACK FREAKING LOTUS WITHOUT A MANA COST :3
that I have a few issues. :P If you want 'Balanced but Exploitable', then an "Undefined" CMC would cause Engineered Explosives to deal exactly:
@#$%E^U%RGT101110110101001000000110010HQ#T ^"$YW%TW$U$YW W$%yw467W$^ ERROR PROXY 401 0101010010101010101111001101010101010101010101010000000110101010111011011011110101011101010101011 q3 01010101110101010100111 q R $ t Q# xxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX--------------------------------------------------------
damage to a creature or player, which make target player's life total equivalent to exactly ZORB life points. :D
Continue
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(2 votes)
Getting the reprint it deserves in Modern Masters. Welcome back, old friend.
Comments (33)
(Originally posted by Ahlyis in the Wizards Rules Q&A Forum)
Cascade does two things. First, it let's you find a card with a CMC less than that of the spell with Cascade. The CMC of Lotus Bloom is 0, so as long as the spell with cascade has a CMC greater than 0, the Lotus Bloom qualifies.
Second, it lets you play the found non-land card without paying it's mana cost. This lets you bypass the unpayable {} mana cost of the Lotus Bloom.
You can play a Lotus Bloom off of a Cascade just fine.
You have to suspend it. You cannot play a spell without a casting cost from your hand, it may not say this on the card text, but it says so in the rule book..
"202.3a The converted mana cost of an object with no mana cost is 0."
Cascade states you need (702.82a) "a nonland card whose converted mana cost is less than this spell’s converted mana cost. You may cast that card without paying its mana cost."
Lotus Bloom has an unpayable cost, and according to 116.6a, "If an alternative cost is applied to an unpayable cost, including an effect that allows a player to cast a spell without paying its mana cost, the alternative cost may be paid."
So you can cast Lotus Bloom with the alternative cost provided by Cascade, exactly as you do with that provided by Suspend:
"When you remove the last , cast it without paying its mana cost."
edit: i fail
Black Lotus gave you a huge mana advantage for first turns, ect. You practically took 3 extra turns in 1 go from it. This does the exact same thing, except if its in your opening hand, you get it 3 turns later. Its still the same effect and if you didn't win from that boost later on, you're doing it wrong.
Still a 5/5 though.
In the era of Ravnica/Timespiral Standard, this won a lot of games, including first place at Worlds.
Three of these, a dragonstorm and four Bogardan Hellkites in your deck was all you needed to win.
Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Blossom, and Lotus Vale can all be very useful in the right deck,
but this one can help out most any deck without any specific combos.
Add in the fact there *are* a few ways of exploiting this card, and you have a winner.
This card references Magic's most iconic card, Black Lotus and is part of a cycle of rares featuring the Suspend mechanic and having no mana cost, forcing you to suspend them as the primary way to cast them. The cards all callback to one of the color's most powerful spells ever; the others are Ancestral Vision, Wheel of Fate, Hypergenesis, Living End, and Restore Balance.
As these cards have no mana cost, they must be suspended to be played from your hand, but abilities such as Cascade treat these cards as if their converted mana cost is 0, allowing you to skirt around suspend and play them immediately!
Stanislav Cifka won the Pro Tour Return to Ravnica on the back of this particular card as part of the combo deck called "Second Breakfast." Through Suspend or sneaking it into play using Reshape, Cifka's deck used the massive mana of the Lotus Blooms in combination with Second Sunrise and Faith's Reward and artifacts which draw cards when sacrificed to draw through his deck. He famously won the final game of the event keeping a hand with two Lotus Blooms and no lands in it at all! Coverage can be found here: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptrtr12/welcome
I would like card's to be 'balanced but exploitable' whenever possible, but the 'CMC = 0' Hack just seems....a little bit wrong to me. It makes Eggs Decks and creepy tricks with Cascade Possible....
and I'm not saying that in House Rules Casual, that is a bad thing...but I would prefer that Reshape not become a 2-mana Tinker is all. Really, seriously, it because I think Reshape is being abused in ways against the intentions of its Design and Development, because Lotus Bloom is the -only- Artifact Without a Mana Cost I know of, and of course it just HAS TO be a BLACK FREAKING LOTUS WITHOUT A MANA COST :3
that I have a few issues. :P If you want 'Balanced but Exploitable', then an "Undefined" CMC would cause Engineered Explosives to deal exactly:
@#$%E^U%RGT101110110101001000000110010HQ#T
^"$YW%TW$U$YW W$%yw467W$^ ERROR PROXY 401
0101010010101010101111001101010101010101010101010000000110101010111011011011110101011101010101011
q3
01010101110101010100111
q R
$
t Q#
xxxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX--------------------------------------------------------
damage to a creature or player, which make target player's life total equivalent to exactly ZORB life points. :D
You don't seem to understand Engineered explosives.
Also, It's CMC = 0. It's MANA COST (not converted) is undefined or null or what have you.