Well, I know one creature who isn't going to be happy about facing Incinerate instead of Lightning Bolt.
DazeRyuken
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(6 votes)
Give this guy a Worldslayer, drop a Forest every turn after the first swing to keep him healthy. It'd be fun.
AngelPhoenix
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(5 votes)
Very simply. Very solid. Love it. There isn't actually a whole lot of cards in recent blocks that still regen for only 1 mana.
mutantman
★★☆☆☆ (2.5/5.0)(10 votes)
I hate that this guy keeps getting reprinted.
Okay, okay, "hate" is too strong a word, but I disapprove. It's regeneration, you see. I don't like it. Regenerating is a clunky, unintuitive ability that does a poor job of matching the intended flavor.
Exhibit A: Why does the creature tap? What purpose does that serve? It increases the complexity of the ability in a totally unnecessary way. I know a lot of people who just forget that bit entirely. I'm pretty sure it's an artifact of the pre-6th Edition days, or something? At any rate, it's added complexity that doesn't improve the gameplay.
Exhibit B: Why do you regenerate before the creature gets injured? That's unintuitive. More like pregeneration, am I right? But seriously, having to use the ability beforehand makes sense for a shield-type flavor, not a heal-your-wounds-type flavor, and certainly not a Drudge Skeletons-type flavor (which Reassembling Skeleton pulled off infinitely more elegantly). In the post-M10 world, Core Sets are supposed to be havens of strong, resonant flavor, and regeneration as a mechanic doesn't deliver on that.
Exhibit C: The complexity spreads out onto other cards. Yes, they're phasing this out, but as a previous comment pointed out, Incinerate is in M12 too. If it weren't for Cudgel Troll, they could have just printed the much cleaner "Lightning Bolt but for one extra mana" instead. Because of this one card, they didn't; I resent that a little. (Nothing against Incinerate; it's a fine card and the Zoltan & Gabor art is sweet, but I appreciate simplicity too.)
Thornling's "indestructible until end of turn" represents a much cleaner execution of something in the same mechanical space. I'd like to see more of that. There's also room to start over from scratch in the same way that Intimidate came in to replace Fear--a re-flavored regeneration could even be retooled to fit in white if they wanted (although with flying, first strike, protection, vigilance, lifelink, and double strike, white has such a glut of keywords in its pie already that I doubt it needs any more).
Why am I railing on Cudgel Troll for all this stuff? Because we were so close to dropping regeneration completely from the Core Set. M10 had Wall of Bone, Cudgel Troll, Polymorph, Drudge Skeletons, and Regenerate. In M11, all of them got the boot...except Cudgel Troll. Someone probably paid a green mana for him, and he got to keep his foot in the door. Now in M12, thanks to this guy (in my head, anyway), that door got shoved open another couple of inches to let Trollhide and Incinerate in, and here we are again. We were so close until dumb ol' Cudgel Troll ruined it all!
MaRo says R&D is debating this issue (source: http://tumblr.com/xfd3jnn5xj) and, if you haven't guessed, I'm on the anti-regeneration side, so my fingers are crossed that future core sets will one day be Cudgel Troll-free.
...Anyway, no matter how you feel about regeneration as a mechanic, I think we can all agree that Cudgel Troll is a nice high pick in Limited because of his ability to just dominate the ground. Double green is an issue, of course--there are definitely cases where it's correct to value a Giant Spider higher than this guy simply because of the color commitment. In general, though, I'll take Cudgel Troll highly and consider it a pretty strong signal if I'm passed one third-pick or later. On the other side of the table, Siege Mastodon is a good card to keep in mind if you're a white deck and you think you might be up against some trolls.
Arachibutyrophobia
★★★☆☆ (3.9/5.0)(4 votes)
lol, I'm trolling
CJM2
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(1 vote)
@mutantman
You actually make several really good points. When I think about it, Regenerate is a mechanic that's off-flavor and too complicated. Thornling's Indestructibility is a cleaner solution; the only problem is that it prevents all destruction for the rest of the turn, rather than only one instance. Certainly Reassembling Skeleton feels much more like a truly regenerating creature. In my opinion, if they wanted to properly execute a true regenerate mechanic, it would be something like this:
G: If this creature (permanent) dies (is destroyed) this turn, return it to the battlefield at the beginning of the next end step.
That way, cards like Incinerate or Wrath of God wouldn't be obsoleted or lose their flavor, new players would understand the more intuitive mechanic, and it would convey more of a sense of magical healing (as all other creatures that didn't die "heal" during the end step).
Bulhakas
★★★☆☆ (3.3/5.0)(5 votes)
If it depended on people like mutantman, MtG would have the complexity of Pokémon.
@mutantman Regeration has been a classic feature to magic for a long time. Tho with the addition of indestructble, its now just a weaker version of that. But its not the same as that. Darksteel myr is 0/1 indestructable for 3 and cudgel troll is 4/3 regen {G} for 4. See the difference?
A) The creature taps to add flavor. Its supposably regenerating at this point, and using all of its energy/time to heal itself. The taping also provides a window to attack. You can bolt troll and force him to regen, then swing. My question to you is why wouldnt it tap. If the troll is regerating why can it still participate in combat and block another creature.
B) I agree with this. Back in the day me and my bros always called the regen as a response to death rather then a before. I belive new players see it this way to and any other way just overcomplicates it. But with the rules as they are, when the status has been checked and the creature has been dealt lethal damage, it immediatly gos to the yard and dies, leaving no time to regenerate after combat. Maby we can fix this with changing the ruling to this, "When this creature dies, you may pay {G}, and tap it to prevent death." Something like that i dont think it would break the game. For online it would pop up a trigger when its dealt leathal damage then you click yes or no, if yes it lives if no it dies.
C) I dont think "cannot be regenerated" is complex. Regen gos back past standard and is all threwout magic.
D) Indestructable until end of turn is not regeneration, no matter how simalar it is. -Regeneration is a weaker ability then indestructability -You can force a creature to regen numerous times, until there out of mana and you finaly finish it off. -Regeration taps the creature, leaving it valnerable to combat tricks. -Theres cannot be regenerated effects, where as theres no "Destroy Indestructable" effects.
F) Changing regeneration to a leave's play then returns type ability would further weakin it. It would take the power of throwing auras on it. Mess up counters, de-equipt equipment, flickering every regen would cause allot of unnessesary problems.
All things aside i happen to love regeneration. Oldschool classic ability. And a 4/3 for {2}{G}{G} with regenerate {G} is sick.
Salient
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(5 votes)
The next time this creature would be destroyed this turn, it isn't. Instead deploy the air bag, double your insurance premium, and add three points to your driver's license.
Dr_Fletchers
★★★★☆ (4.8/5.0)(5 votes)
They need more trolls!!!!!!
Corey_bayoudragonfly
★★★☆☆ (3.9/5.0)(5 votes)
People like mutantman killed banding.
deadeye1387
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(2 votes)
Very nice. I like DazeRyuken's comment about the Worldslayer. I hope this guy gets reprinted for years to come.
DacenOctavio
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(2 votes)
If Core sets had edicts, this card would be worse in limited. It's still not great in constructed because RDW uses Incinerate and every deck running black either has Skinrender, Tribute to Hunger, or Geth's Verdict, but it's still an ok card for its rarity, set, and mana cost to stats ratio.
Binaro
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
I really hate it when people troll me with this card. Thankfully, Incinerate saves me from being trolled.
Paolino
★★★☆☆ (3.9/5.0)(4 votes)
After reading these comments I don't know how to feel...
When I read about regeneration being TOO COMPLEX or NOT FLAVORFUL, and the possibility to REPLACE IT with another ability (yes, MaRo said THAT in the post mutantman linked) I shudder... Luckily there are some people who appreciate the greatest abilities in Magic (thanks Corey_bayoudragonfly for quoting banding), this comforts me.
As a long-time player (I started at the very beginning, I could say that I am an "always-time player"), even if not a tournament super-competitive player, I have seen during nineteen years what has become better and what has become worse in this fantastic game. Completeness and clarity of the rules, to me are the first thing which got better and better in Magic. Now every single ability and keyword is well explained in the Comprehensive Rules, and the most complicated are accompanied by examples. Don't say that there are too complex or not intuitive abilities in Magic; ALL is clarified enough in the rules, and you just have to take a look at glossary which immediately redirects you to the rule paragraph! On this card we can discuss power creep (to briefly conclude that this card is balanced), but please NOT COMPLEXITY! One of the things which has worsened is that Magic R&D bows to small-brained players' complaints and doesn't improve and maintain some of the best abilities and mechanics of the game. Some of them are substituted by childish counterparts. No more drawbacks (players like all-upside effects most), no more banding (people don't understand it), no more phasing (too complicated for the average child-minded player), shroud becomes hexproof (all upside), "all creatures" effects become "all opponent's creatures" or "creatures you control" effects (all upside), "each player" effects become "all opponents" (all upside), painlands disappeared (take damage from my lands? bah!), and now regeneration! Damn, Wizards, we are not all stupid!!!
I stop here beacuse it's late and it's not correct to discuss so general topics on a comment on a specific card. But goddammit don't complain about regeneration!!!
Very solid creature. As River Boa proved, high power and regeneration for is a good deal.
Ferlord
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
I am sad that this wasn't reprinted in M13, but if it were, it'd be super gold in limited (rather than the normal gold it was before).
That's mostly because Incinerate wasn't reprinted either. Mind you, it would've probably been if Cudgel Troll was.
TyomDrettar
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
I love how trolls in mtg can regenerate (trolololol0 before it's time).
Oh and the constant re-prints of this card just emphasizes my point.
Lobrix
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
I use these all the time for my troll baloth tribal decks when i ramp the man up i can usually steamroll the whole lot save black. dam plague wind two trolls and two baloths all gone in a single turn i promptly lost
Comments (26)
Okay, okay, "hate" is too strong a word, but I disapprove. It's regeneration, you see. I don't like it. Regenerating is a clunky, unintuitive ability that does a poor job of matching the intended flavor.
Exhibit A: Why does the creature tap? What purpose does that serve? It increases the complexity of the ability in a totally unnecessary way. I know a lot of people who just forget that bit entirely. I'm pretty sure it's an artifact of the pre-6th Edition days, or something? At any rate, it's added complexity that doesn't improve the gameplay.
Exhibit B: Why do you regenerate before the creature gets injured? That's unintuitive. More like pregeneration, am I right? But seriously, having to use the ability beforehand makes sense for a shield-type flavor, not a heal-your-wounds-type flavor, and certainly not a Drudge Skeletons-type flavor (which Reassembling Skeleton pulled off infinitely more elegantly). In the post-M10 world, Core Sets are supposed to be havens of strong, resonant flavor, and regeneration as a mechanic doesn't deliver on that.
Exhibit C: The complexity spreads out onto other cards. Yes, they're phasing this out, but as a previous comment pointed out, Incinerate is in M12 too. If it weren't for Cudgel Troll, they could have just printed the much cleaner "Lightning Bolt but for one extra mana" instead. Because of this one card, they didn't; I resent that a little. (Nothing against Incinerate; it's a fine card and the Zoltan & Gabor art is sweet, but I appreciate simplicity too.)
Thornling's "indestructible until end of turn" represents a much cleaner execution of something in the same mechanical space. I'd like to see more of that. There's also room to start over from scratch in the same way that Intimidate came in to replace Fear--a re-flavored regeneration could even be retooled to fit in white if they wanted (although with flying, first strike, protection, vigilance, lifelink, and double strike, white has such a glut of keywords in its pie already that I doubt it needs any more).
Why am I railing on Cudgel Troll for all this stuff? Because we were so close to dropping regeneration completely from the Core Set. M10 had Wall of Bone, Cudgel Troll, Polymorph, Drudge Skeletons, and Regenerate. In M11, all of them got the boot...except Cudgel Troll. Someone probably paid a green mana for him, and he got to keep his foot in the door. Now in M12, thanks to this guy (in my head, anyway), that door got shoved open another couple of inches to let Trollhide and Incinerate in, and here we are again. We were so close until dumb ol' Cudgel Troll ruined it all!
MaRo says R&D is debating this issue (source: http://tumblr.com/xfd3jnn5xj) and, if you haven't guessed, I'm on the anti-regeneration side, so my fingers are crossed that future core sets will one day be Cudgel Troll-free.
...Anyway, no matter how you feel about regeneration as a mechanic, I think we can all agree that Cudgel Troll is a nice high pick in Limited because of his ability to just dominate the ground. Double green is an issue, of course--there are definitely cases where it's correct to value a Giant Spider higher than this guy simply because of the color commitment. In general, though, I'll take Cudgel Troll highly and consider it a pretty strong signal if I'm passed one third-pick or later. On the other side of the table, Siege Mastodon is a good card to keep in mind if you're a white deck and you think you might be up against some trolls.
You actually make several really good points. When I think about it, Regenerate is a mechanic that's off-flavor and too complicated. Thornling's Indestructibility is a cleaner solution; the only problem is that it prevents all destruction for the rest of the turn, rather than only one instance. Certainly Reassembling Skeleton feels much more like a truly regenerating creature. In my opinion, if they wanted to properly execute a true regenerate mechanic, it would be something like this:
G: If this creature (permanent) dies (is destroyed) this turn, return it to the battlefield at the beginning of the next end step.
That way, cards like Incinerate or Wrath of God wouldn't be obsoleted or lose their flavor, new players would understand the more intuitive mechanic, and it would convey more of a sense of magical healing (as all other creatures that didn't die "heal" during the end step).
moral of the story, dont burn my Trolls
A) The creature taps to add flavor. Its supposably regenerating at this point, and using all of its energy/time to heal itself. The taping also provides a window to attack. You can bolt troll and force him to regen, then swing. My question to you is why wouldnt it tap. If the troll is regerating why can it still participate in combat and block another creature.
B) I agree with this. Back in the day me and my bros always called the regen as a response to death rather then a before. I belive new players see it this way to and any other way just overcomplicates it. But with the rules as they are, when the status has been checked and the creature has been dealt lethal damage, it immediatly gos to the yard and dies, leaving no time to regenerate after combat. Maby we can fix this with changing the ruling to this, "When this creature dies, you may pay {G}, and tap it to prevent death." Something like that i dont think it would break the game. For online it would pop up a trigger when its dealt leathal damage then you click yes or no, if yes it lives if no it dies.
C) I dont think "cannot be regenerated" is complex. Regen gos back past standard and is all threwout magic.
D) Indestructable until end of turn is not regeneration, no matter how simalar it is.
-Regeneration is a weaker ability then indestructability
-You can force a creature to regen numerous times, until there out of mana and you finaly finish it off.
-Regeration taps the creature, leaving it valnerable to combat tricks.
-Theres cannot be regenerated effects, where as theres no "Destroy Indestructable" effects.
F) Changing regeneration to a leave's play then returns type ability would further weakin it. It would take the power of throwing auras on it. Mess up counters, de-equipt equipment, flickering every regen would cause allot of unnessesary problems.
All things aside i happen to love regeneration. Oldschool classic ability. And a 4/3 for {2}{G}{G} with regenerate {G} is sick.
When I read about regeneration being TOO COMPLEX or NOT FLAVORFUL, and the possibility to REPLACE IT with another ability (yes, MaRo said THAT in the post mutantman linked) I shudder... Luckily there are some people who appreciate the greatest abilities in Magic (thanks Corey_bayoudragonfly for quoting banding), this comforts me.
As a long-time player (I started at the very beginning, I could say that I am an "always-time player"), even if not a tournament super-competitive player, I have seen during nineteen years what has become better and what has become worse in this fantastic game.
Completeness and clarity of the rules, to me are the first thing which got better and better in Magic. Now every single ability and keyword is well explained in the Comprehensive Rules, and the most complicated are accompanied by examples. Don't say that there are too complex or not intuitive abilities in Magic; ALL is clarified enough in the rules, and you just have to take a look at glossary which immediately redirects you to the rule paragraph! On this card we can discuss power creep (to briefly conclude that this card is balanced), but please NOT COMPLEXITY!
One of the things which has worsened is that Magic R&D bows to small-brained players' complaints and doesn't improve and maintain some of the best abilities and mechanics of the game. Some of them are substituted by childish counterparts. No more drawbacks (players like all-upside effects most), no more banding (people don't understand it), no more phasing (too complicated for the average child-minded player), shroud becomes hexproof (all upside), "all creatures" effects become "all opponent's creatures" or "creatures you control" effects (all upside), "each player" effects become "all opponents" (all upside), painlands disappeared (take damage from my lands? bah!), and now regeneration! Damn, Wizards, we are not all stupid!!!
I stop here beacuse it's late and it's not correct to discuss so general topics on a comment on a specific card. But goddammit don't complain about regeneration!!!
That's mostly because Incinerate wasn't reprinted either. Mind you, it would've probably been if Cudgel Troll was.
Oh and the constant re-prints of this card just emphasizes my point.