Pointed Discussion

Awesome art in a awesome card ! I played Sorceress queen with Krovikan Vampire & Sengir Vampire.

:O People actually still play the Krovikan vampire...?
I too use her with Sengir, but lol don't play black without him, the ORIGIONAL print that is XD

I'm actually glad they that new blue alternet of her, I LOVE the picture on the Sorceress Queen and afraid if she was reprinted the picture would change.
She's a real life saver!

Just played in a tournament for the first time in years, and ran into this oldie....and the way my opponent was using Sorceress Queen, which was backed up by the man in charge of the tourney, was that its ability is effectively the same as Humble/Ovinize/Sudden Spoiling--i.e., that a creature targeted by the effect loses its abilities along with the change in stats. I'm curious if this is the official ruling on how Sorceress Queen works, because I had, and still have, trouble accepting that, for two reasons:

--Humble, Ovinize and Sudden Spoiling all explicitly state that they alter the target's power/toughness and remove its abilities, while the text for Sorceress Queen states only the stat alteration--and in fact, the Arabian Nights and Revised printings both state that "special characteristics" are unaffected.

--Having been introduced to Magic back when Revised was in print, I have no recollection of this card ever being used to both alter stats and remove abilities. If it has now been decreed that Sorceress Queen does both, it would be far more than a simple rules update or clarification--it would be adding an ability to the card that it previously did not have based solely on a ruling, one that is contradicted by the earliest printings of the card.

The reason this came up was that my opponent attempted to use his Sorceress Queen's ability to save it from death by my Prodigal Sorcerer's well-known tap ability. It was his assertion that since (according to him and the tourney boss) the S.C.'s ability works like Humble/etc., and he used it in reaction to my attempt to ping the S.C., he negated the ping ability by negating it on the stack. However, Gatherer rulings for both Ovinize and Sudden Spoiling both say that their effects do not counter abilities that have already been triggered--so even if an S.C.'s ability works like those cards' abilities, it still should have taken the ping and been killed, leaving a temporarily 0/2 Tim behind (staring at his buddy, the Suq'Ata Firewalker, and saying, "So this is how it feels to have no combat damage to deal!"). Right?

I suppose I'm just being nitpicky, since I beat the guy anyway, but it kind of annoys me to think that I got bigfooted on something that didn't sound right to me from the get-go.

You are very right about it not affecting abilities. The only abilities the Queen affected would be buffs, since the creature has to stay a 0/2 until end of turn. But according to new combat layers, even that's changed, so the Queen just resets the p/t, which can then be buffed as usual. Started a big old argument when I queened somebody's Fallen Angel.

I love this card. I usually played it alongside Royal Assassin. Even though they don't necessarily have a particular synergy with each other, their ability to completely shut down any offense is virtually unparalleled for their cost.

One funny thing about Sorceress Queen in particular is the permanent confusion that seems to surround her ability these days. Doubly funny is that Wizards themselves created this confusion by updating first her card text and later her Oracle. Everyone, if you ever have a question about Sorceress Queen, just look at the original printed text and how she works will become crystal clear. Her original text: "Tap to make another creature 0/2 until end of turn. Treat this exactly as if the numbers in the lower right of the target card were 0/2. All special characteristics and enchantments on the creature are unaffected." Turns out to be pretty simple, huh?

shes not a legend?? O.o

Pretty interesting ability. I wonder if they'll ever reprint it again.

@Pennyforth
The person in charge of that tournament has no idea what they're talking about. Just read the text on the Arabian Nights version of the card: "All special characteristics and enchantments on the creature are unaffected." How much simpler could it get? The reason they removed that text from later versions is probably because it's obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together.

@blindthrall
This card has never affected buffs. Again, just read the text on the Arabian Nights version. Until then, maybe this card is more appropriate for you: Little Girl

Shantae gone bad?

Classic, staple card as far as I'm concerned. Only slightly damaged by the fact that enchantments, temp effects, and +1/+1 counters are no longer "overwritten" when its used.

I still have a deck kicking around that uses this and Nettling Imps to feed opposing creatures to Sengir Vampires and Sengir Bats (with gang blocking or Unholy Strength). Very old-school, and yet it still works in most modern environments, provided they aren't playing direct damage and/or with things that use +1/+1 counters.

Opponent-- I play Emrakul! You're gonna dieee! :D

You-- *tap Sorceress Queen*

Opponent-- >:(

ok i was playing a game last night i was useing sorceress queen my buddie was useing a shivan dragon ok he attacks i say im not going to block it ill yake 5 then he pumps it up i turn it into a 0/2 can he pump it up again after that or dose the damge go thro

The best part of pennyworth's story is that even if the sorceress did remove abilities, that wouldn't save it in response to prodigal sorcerer. Once the prodigal's ability is on the stack, it doesn't matter what happens to the creature itself--the damage would still resolve after the queen's ability does. Using terror or doom blade in response to the ability wouldn't prevent the damage either.

But Mr Salient, doesn't Emrakul have protection from all colours, making him untargetable?!

@Guest

The Queen doesn't remove abilities, so your opponent could very well pump Shivan Dragon in response to her ability. He could also wait until her ability to resolve, then pump. Finally, any pump triggers that were already on the stack, but had yet to resolve when the Queen's ability resolved would still occur. The Dragon would become a 0/2, then gain all the power it would normally get from any of those pumps.

The only one I'm not entirely sure on is pumps that resolved before the Queen's ability. My guess is that the Queen's ability still wouldn't counteract those, because they're essentially +1/+0 counters that last for a turn only. The buff doesn't disappear as a result of the Queen's ability, so the dragon becomes 0+x/2 for the turn, where x is whatever buffs have been applied to it. The only sort of "buffs" the queen's ability can counteract are ones that are phrased exactly like hers is, "Creature becomes x/x until EoT," as whichever effect resolves last will override the previous one in that case.

Sorceress queen, allow me to introduce you to Elesh Norn, one of my friends from New Phyrexia.

@Ahtii Yes! I used to play the queen with Krovikan Vampires too! In fact, I would throw in Norritts as my hostile board takeover.

Quick summary of rules on this card:
No, it does not remove abilities. Even if it did, it would not counter abilities already on the stack (such as prodigal sorcerer's damage).
No, it does not remove the effects of buff enchantments, equipments, global buffs, or counters (those apply after the creature becomes 0/2).
No, it does not remove "until end of turn" buffs, since those are applied after power/toughness setting abilities (this changed in m10).
No, it does not prevent you from buffing a creature above 0/2.

Pretty much the only things this does hit are */* or "copy" cards. Those effects are applied before effects that set power and toughness.
If you have other effects that are setting power or toughness (such as tezzeret), those are applied in the order they were played (timestamp order).