Less cards than Ponder, but slightly more control. You would have to get into some math to see which one tends to be better.
JWMidnight
★★★★☆ (4.6/5.0)(8 votes)
I'll miss Ponder. I much liked having the option to correct my bad shuffling if my next few cards were bad.
Mode
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(5 votes)
Why are you all talking about Ponder?
Sure, it replaces Ponder, but actually it's far more similar to Serum Visions,
which makes you draw the card at first, and then to scry 2 instead.
Tezz
★★★★☆ (4.2/5.0)(3 votes)
cause it will replace ponder in standard i understand this replacing ponder since this has a keyword, scry.
sir_dwar
★★★★☆ (4.0/5.0)(4 votes)
Hmm... The debate over which card is better, Preordain or Ponder, is a tricky one. In my opinion, it comes down to taste- Both have their merits, and it's up to you which is better- The farther reaching effect of ponder, or the finesse of Preordain.
Strictly better than Serum Visions, though. Frankly, Serum Visions was kind of a "Why?" card.
Kryptnyt
★★★★☆ (4.8/5.0)(4 votes)
@mode; because these guys have only been around since sharts of alara :P but yeah I like this over serum visions, and its also a little better than a sorcery speed Opt but I kinda like instant :0
raegbund
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(4 votes)
i want this card for my chronozoa deck. Amazing sift at a cheap cost.
@ VirtueVsVice
well, ponder is good if 2 or 3 cards are good or if none are. Its not to great if only 1 card is cause you either lose that good card or deal with 2 bad ones right after it. This card is good no matter how many are good or bad. If both are good, decided which one you want most. If one is good, then just put the other on the bottom. If both are bad, then you put both on the bottom and have a higher chance of drawing the good stuff. So...i guess its preference honestly.
littlebeast
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(2 votes)
because ponder is newer?
I was always a little unsure whether I liked Ponder or Serum Visions better. This is better than Serum Visions, but I'm still not sure on it vs. ponder. Oh well, I'll just run both.
and @jwmidnight: This affords you more control, what are you complaining about? If you don't like the cards you found, you can just, y'know, PUT THEM ON THE BOTTOM?
Guntz1092
★★★★☆ (4.9/5.0)(7 votes)
Personally, Ponder is my favorite 1-drop draw card.
I get the choice between the top three cards, and if i don't like them, i can just reshuffle, then draw (which, unless you stack your cards, is better than just putting the cards on the bottom w/ scry)
Serum Visions doesn't allow me to choose between the 3 cards involved, and instead forces me to take the first and rearrange the next two.
Preordain lets me pick, but only between the top 2, and i don't even get to reshuffle.
I guess the two Scry cards are helpful in correcting the top few cards revealed (by something like Sage Owl or Halimar Depths), but then again Ponder can do the same...And also, with Scrying, i can make sure i don't have to see those cards anytime soon (unless i shuffle my deck, which with fetch lands in Standard, would actually pretty often for those that actually buy cards separately). This way, i have a higher probability of drawing more preferable situational cards and not have to worry about finding the card i didn't want still close to the top of the deck.
meh, i write too much...sorry bout that
Selez
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
Among the many changes wizards is making on cards to make them appeal to players (changing creature types to be more useful, making cards with newcomer appeal better, etc.), this is one of the few that I can agree with. Though it spits in the face of its predecessor (Serum Visions), it makes so much more sense for the scry to go before the draw.
@VirtueVsVice
I wouldn't say this has more control then Ponder
I even feel it has less. And I won't be playing this.
Scry 2, draw one isn't good enough to take a slot.
TheSwarm
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(2 votes)
I really like preordain because it allows me to rip through my deck looking for the perfect card. If you look at it and play it right it speeds up your deck just as much as Ancestral Recall does, you get to zip past three cards for one mana
A3Kitsune
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
I'd say the card this is most similar to is Sleight of Hand.
cloneffect
★★★★☆ (4.8/5.0)(2 votes)
It's now pretty clear that this is a lot better than Ponder for anything that isn't a combo deck. Ponder's better in looking for that Yawgmoth's Will or that Pyromancer Ascension, cuz it digs a bit deeper, but in control decks that don't have some crazy combo, Preordain's much better. With Ponder you'd see, all too often, two bad cards and a good card, and be left with a horrible choice. Preordain allows you to filter away the crap you see, while still giving you the option to get rid of all the bad cards if that's all you see. It's really, really good.
krumtheslow
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
1 ponder
1 brainstorm
4 preordain
Pwnsaw
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
For a combo deck, I would much rather play preordain over ponder. Preordain can dig you deeper into the deck to get the card you are looking for sooner.
GruesomeGoo
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
It has it's advantages over Ponder. Yes, Ponder looks at more cards, but this allows you to shuffle one card back. Let's say you're running a combo deck, and you need two pieces of your combo in order to go off. You Ponder and pull land, one piece, and another land. You can keep the piece, but now you've screwed yourself for two turns. You could also shuffle, but that means shuffling a combo piece away. If you had used this instead, you could've kept the piece but gotten rid of the crap. Both have advantages, so I have no idea which is the "better" card. However, they are both very solid cards for most blue decks.
I guess Preordain is better for Control decks (You can keep more cards that help your significant problem) but Ponder is better for Combo, because you dig further for you combo piece (up to 4 cards vs. 2 with preordain)
Nagoragama
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
They should just reprint Brainstorm and be done with it. I mean, they saw fit to reprint Lightning Bolt, didn't they?
tantallum99
★★★★☆ (4.5/5.0)(1 vote)
Preordain is better than ponder. with ponder you either put all back on top or shuffle all. with this, if you have one good card, but the other sucks, you still can take the good card and put the other on the bottom. If you need a land and the first 2 aren't, you can put them both on the bottom. Even if the third card you draw is not a land, you really should get one the next draw after taking 4 off the top.
HairlessThoctar
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(3 votes)
Neither this nor Ponder is more powerful than the other since there's enough difference between the two mechanically.
Ultimately I like Ponder because it can ultimately see more cards, so you can play around with top card matters cards, like Top for instance.
Alternatively, I like this card because it relies more on knowns than Ponder does. If you cast Ponder, the top 3 cards are crap, and you choose to shuffle, there is a very real chance of drawing one of the 3 cards you didn't want to draw. Whereas with this, though you see fewer cards no matter what, there is no chance of redrawing into the 2 cards you sent away.
Balestra
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
What´s the ruling if instead of scry and then draw, you skip the scry and just draw one card?
JFM2796
★★★☆☆ (3.0/5.0)(2 votes)
I prefer Ponder. While this one lets you drop the unwanted cards to the bottom of your library, that should pretty much happen when you shuffle with Ponder. And Ponder gives you gives you access to three cards rather than two. Good card, but not Ponder good.
PolishTamales
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
Better than Ponder late game. You want answers, you get em faster with Preordain than you would with Ponder. I rather take logical probability over "top decking" from the shuffle any-day of the week.
In some situations, this is better than Brainstorm if you don't have fetchlands to support it, especially considering mid to late game.
sincleanser
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Ehhhh, they're really close but I prefer Ponder. Both are a solid 4 though.
reapersaurus
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
@Guntz - (top-rated comment currently) Ponder is your favorite 1-drop draw card?
I guess players have already forgotten Brainstorm or Ancestral Recall...?
DarthParallax
★★☆☆☆ (2.8/5.0)(2 votes)
@reapersaurus:
Ponder is my second favorite, tied with Brainstorm, after Fact or Fiction. The only problem I have with Ancestral Recall (yes, technically powerful) is that the actual motions of casting it don't make you feel smart like Ponder, Brainstorm, or Fact or Fiction. Though, yes I will admit Ancestral Recall is better. If it works well enough, I hope that Visions of Beyond gets to reach the top of this list in evil, evil gravyeard decks. :)
At everyone else: Banned where Ponder is Banned. It might not be Restricted in Vintage, but I think this is a clear sign from Wizards that Ponder and Preordain are close enough to equal that it really doesn't matter unless you are playing extremely hard core (harder than most of you probably have played, even if you think you're tough because you always win FNM and even tried out a PTQ and almost made it)
Tokosan
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(2 votes)
ahahahh BANNED!!
TheWrathofShane
★☆☆☆☆ (1.6/5.0)(5 votes)
I am very confused why this is banned. Its a simple draw card, that lets you have some minor deck control and not loose a card for one cmc. Very fair and in the right color.
The only reason they gave was to limit blue red decks of finding there combo cards. Well that seems very narrow to ban an entire utility card. Now if you want to splash blue to get some card draw, 2 great options at the 1 cmc slot are just gone. It does not seem right.
Plus, they said there goal in these bans was to prevent turn 3 wins. Blue red decks dont win on turn 3 there slower, needed the draws to help them run smoother.
I vote this should be unbanned right now, and that Magic BANS the people who passed this nonsense.
scorpiolegend
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
If you play blue, and play in a format where this is allowed, you run 4.
DacenOctavio
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
Ponder is either keep or shuffle. This is keep and/or bottom. I prefer Preordain.
Holy Schnikeys. Banned with Ponder in modern? No love for manipulating the top 3 of the library for {U}? Sad face.
This card is as important to any deck as Lightning Bolt is to any deck that runs Mountain.
Arachibutyrophobia
★☆☆☆☆ (1.2/5.0)(2 votes)
for some reason I thought this was an instant. :) ya know, considering all the hype it was getting. but no, it's just normal library manipulation.
Zokorad
★☆☆☆☆ (1.0/5.0)(4 votes)
Why was this Banned in Extended? It is perfectly balanced!
cardraptor6
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
If you hear any sobbing, it's me when I realized this is a year too old to help with the new Miracle mechanic
ndrew68
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
why the front door is this banned? its a nice spell and all but banning seems a little bit.... harsh. #unban
atemu1234
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
I cast both this and Ponder. Who cares which is better, they're both good.I'd call them great, but Ancestral Recall and Brainstorm exist.
MindAblaze
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
This card is banned because of consistency.
Do you like losing to splinter twin on turn four or five? I don't. If you can have eight copies of the two cards that makes up a two card win con and eight copies of a card that helps you find those pieces...what's left?
24 cards, and you're left with 12 cards to fill holes and play defense until your combo can go off. That's just one example, I would love to have preordain in any of my decks these days. This was a very important tool in CawBlade. Looking at the standard meta at the time it wasn't irregular to see 32 copies in a top 8. Wizards wants variation in the meta game, and cards like this limit it. As much as I'd love it for Pyromancer's Ascension...I'll figure out something else to use. I like Thought Scour and Faithless Looting too.
DimirSnail
★★☆☆☆ (2.8/5.0)(2 votes)
@Mightyass - I play a Legacy combo deck. I run 4 Preordains and 4 Serum Visions, and I wouldn't dream of using Ponders...
In weighing Ponder against Preordain, people get some funny ideas. First of all, Preordain lets you probe up to 3 cards, not just 2.
But more importantly, there seem to be a lot of people out there who do not realize that when looking for specific combo cards, shuffling is counterproductive. Consider using 2 Ponders: they do not work in tandem. But in this context, without shuffling, every scry increases the value of the next scry with a guarantee of drawing closer to the goal.
Not only that, but a Ponder that yields a top-3 rearrangement really shatters the potential usefulness of another Ponder on the next turn, whereas scry+draw cards chain rather nicely.
Ponder also sticks you with either the set of top-3 that was already there or the uncontrollable results of a shuffle. Preordain gives you much more control, including the ability to skip over unwanted cards while delving ahead, which Ponder does not. This gives you a lot of control over the ratio of lands to nonlands that you draw.
A Ponder is great to get on its own. But if you're going to dedicate more than 1 card to library manipulation, then scry-like abilities are far superior (until you get hit with a shuffle, and then they're on pretty even ground).
SnackyNorph
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Love this card, 5/5, all of that nonsense. I have a question for this site, though: Why, when I select Modern as a format filter, does this card (banned in Modern) appear? Seems odd that a card not legal in a format would appear in a list for that format.
Hunter06
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
With scry returning in Theros, maybe this will make a return
*I hope not, and I'm an Esper control player :/, this is too bonkers for standard...
Comments (42)
Sure, it replaces Ponder, but actually it's far more similar to Serum Visions,
which makes you draw the card at first, and then to scry 2 instead.
i understand this replacing ponder since this has a keyword, scry.
Strictly better than Serum Visions, though. Frankly, Serum Visions was kind of a "Why?" card.
because these guys have only been around since sharts of alara :P
but yeah I like this over serum visions, and its also a little better than a sorcery speed Opt but I kinda like instant :0
@ VirtueVsVice
well, ponder is good if 2 or 3 cards are good or if none are. Its not to great if only 1 card is cause you either lose that good card or deal with 2 bad ones right after it. This card is good no matter how many are good or bad. If both are good, decided which one you want most. If one is good, then just put the other on the bottom. If both are bad, then you put both on the bottom and have a higher chance of drawing the good stuff. So...i guess its preference honestly.
I was always a little unsure whether I liked Ponder or Serum Visions better. This is better than Serum Visions, but I'm still not sure on it vs. ponder. Oh well, I'll just run both.
and @jwmidnight: This affords you more control, what are you complaining about? If you don't like the cards you found, you can just, y'know, PUT THEM ON THE BOTTOM?
I get the choice between the top three cards, and if i don't like them, i can just reshuffle, then draw (which, unless you stack your cards, is better than just putting the cards on the bottom w/ scry)
Serum Visions doesn't allow me to choose between the 3 cards involved, and instead forces me to take the first and rearrange the next two.
Preordain lets me pick, but only between the top 2, and i don't even get to reshuffle.
I guess the two Scry cards are helpful in correcting the top few cards revealed (by something like Sage Owl or Halimar Depths), but then again Ponder can do the same...And also, with Scrying, i can make sure i don't have to see those cards anytime soon (unless i shuffle my deck, which with fetch lands in Standard, would actually pretty often for those that actually buy cards separately). This way, i have a higher probability of drawing more preferable situational cards and not have to worry about finding the card i didn't want still close to the top of the deck.
meh, i write too much...sorry bout that
Preordain - Scry 2
Ponder - May shuffle
Preordain -
Ponder - Draw a card
Preordain - Draw a card
@VirtueVsVice
I wouldn't say this has more control then Ponder
I even feel it has less. And I won't be playing this.
Scry 2, draw one isn't good enough to take a slot.
1 brainstorm
4 preordain
Let's say you're running a combo deck, and you need two pieces of your combo in order to go off.
You Ponder and pull land, one piece, and another land. You can keep the piece, but now you've screwed yourself for two turns. You could also shuffle, but that means shuffling a combo piece away.
If you had used this instead, you could've kept the piece but gotten rid of the crap.
Both have advantages, so I have no idea which is the "better" card.
However, they are both very solid cards for most blue decks.
Ultimately I like Ponder because it can ultimately see more cards, so you can play around with top card matters cards, like Top for instance.
Alternatively, I like this card because it relies more on knowns than Ponder does.
If you cast Ponder, the top 3 cards are crap, and you choose to shuffle, there is a very real chance of drawing one of the 3 cards you didn't want to draw.
Whereas with this, though you see fewer cards no matter what, there is no chance of redrawing into the 2 cards you sent away.
In some situations, this is better than Brainstorm if you don't have fetchlands to support it, especially considering mid to late game.
Ponder is your favorite 1-drop draw card?
I guess players have already forgotten Brainstorm or Ancestral Recall...?
Ponder is my second favorite, tied with Brainstorm, after Fact or Fiction. The only problem I have with Ancestral Recall (yes, technically powerful) is that the actual motions of casting it don't make you feel smart like Ponder, Brainstorm, or Fact or Fiction. Though, yes I will admit Ancestral Recall is better. If it works well enough, I hope that Visions of Beyond gets to reach the top of this list in evil, evil gravyeard decks. :)
At everyone else: Banned where Ponder is Banned. It might not be Restricted in Vintage, but I think this is a clear sign from Wizards that Ponder and Preordain are close enough to equal that it really doesn't matter unless you are playing extremely hard core (harder than most of you probably have played, even if you think you're tough because you always win FNM and even tried out a PTQ and almost made it)
The only reason they gave was to limit blue red decks of finding there combo cards. Well that seems very narrow to ban an entire utility card. Now if you want to splash blue to get some card draw, 2 great options at the 1 cmc slot are just gone. It does not seem right.
Plus, they said there goal in these bans was to prevent turn 3 wins. Blue red decks dont win on turn 3 there slower, needed the draws to help them run smoother.
I vote this should be unbanned right now, and that Magic BANS the people who passed this nonsense.
Holy Schnikeys. Banned with Ponder in modern? No love for manipulating the top 3 of the library for {U}? Sad face.
This card is as important to any deck as Lightning Bolt is to any deck that runs Mountain.
Do you like losing to splinter twin on turn four or five? I don't. If you can have eight copies of the two cards that makes up a two card win con and eight copies of a card that helps you find those pieces...what's left?
4-deceiver exarch
4-pestermite
4-splinter twin
4-Kiki-Jiki
4-ponder
4-preordain
24 cards, and you're left with 12 cards to fill holes and play defense until your combo can go off. That's just one example, I would love to have preordain in any of my decks these days. This was a very important tool in CawBlade. Looking at the standard meta at the time it wasn't irregular to see 32 copies in a top 8. Wizards wants variation in the meta game, and cards like this limit it. As much as I'd love it for Pyromancer's Ascension...I'll figure out something else to use. I like Thought Scour and Faithless Looting too.
In weighing Ponder against Preordain, people get some funny ideas. First of all, Preordain lets you probe up to 3 cards, not just 2.
But more importantly, there seem to be a lot of people out there who do not realize that when looking for specific combo cards, shuffling is counterproductive. Consider using 2 Ponders: they do not work in tandem. But in this context, without shuffling, every scry increases the value of the next scry with a guarantee of drawing closer to the goal.
Not only that, but a Ponder that yields a top-3 rearrangement really shatters the potential usefulness of another Ponder on the next turn, whereas scry+draw cards chain rather nicely.
Ponder also sticks you with either the set of top-3 that was already there or the uncontrollable results of a shuffle. Preordain gives you much more control, including the ability to skip over unwanted cards while delving ahead, which Ponder does not. This gives you a lot of control over the ratio of lands to nonlands that you draw.
A Ponder is great to get on its own. But if you're going to dedicate more than 1 card to library manipulation, then scry-like abilities are far superior (until you get hit with a shuffle, and then they're on pretty even ground).
*I hope not, and I'm an Esper control player :/, this is too bonkers for standard...
5/5 Stars