I have been doing a bit of research, and i cant seem to find any information regarding Wither or -1/-1 abilities and how they interact with Regeneration.
If I was to play Master Transmuter, and my opponent would let the spell resolve, then Disfigure it. can i Metallurgeon my transmuter and prevent it from dieing?
JacksJokeShop
★★☆☆☆ (2.4/5.0)(4 votes)
@ArKive From the rules DOC 701.11a If the effect of a resolving spell or ability regenerates a permanent, it creates a replacement effect that protects the permanent the next time it would be destroyed this turn. In this case, “Regenerate ” means “The next time would be destroyed this turn, instead remove all damage marked on it and tap it. If it’s an attacking or blocking creature, remove it from combat.”
I am not a judge and cant say for sure, but I believe this effect would be destroying it, therefore it would be able to regenerate from the -2/-2 counters.
anyways, one of the more useful black cards in Zendikar. Splashable, un-reducable (as in Safe Passage effects), Shock-esque spell with (imo) better combat utility. Me likey!
herbomatic
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
704.5f - If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.
Technically, reducing a creature's toughness to 0 or less doesn't destroy it (701.6b) - so neither indestructibility nor regeneration help (nor would protection, for non-targeted effects like Marsh Casualties or the classic Mutilate)
lightwired
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Its long been known that regenerate does not stop -x/-x effects like this. This will also take out indestructible 2/2s as well. -x/-x does not destroy, it just makes a card be 0/0 or less.. Great card for the cost and about time black has its own good single mana removal
StreamHopper
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(1 vote)
My friend and I had a "frank exchange of opinions" about the -1/-1 counters on a regenerating creature. When the creature is struck with a card like this one (which dictates that the -2/-2 counters don't go away until the end of the turn), when it comes back, it still has those counters on it, which destroys it altogether. Basically: Wither is a completely different concept than regular damage, and creatures who regenerate from it are only wasting your mana to regenerate.
CatsAreCthala
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Pretty sweet, but has little value late game. At least a Shock can hit the opponent.
Saxophonist
★★★☆☆ (3.9/5.0)(4 votes)
I move that the name of this card should be changed to Brian Peppersify. All in favor?
Gaussgoat
★★★★☆ (4.7/5.0)(5 votes)
Great art, solid little card. 4/5
JosirisDavid
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
@ swordoath
similar thinking.
Grimn777
★★★★☆ (4.4/5.0)(14 votes)
@ StreamHopper
Please. If you are reading this comment, please take a minute to read StreamHopper's Comment. I will quote it for you:
"My friend and I had a "frank exchange of opinions" about the -1/-1 counters on a regenerating creature. When the creature is struck with a card like this one (which dictates that the -2/-2 counters don't go away until the end of the turn), when it comes back, it still has those counters on it, which destroys it altogether. Basically: Wither is a completely different concept than regular damage, and creatures who regenerate from it are only wasting your mana to regenerate."
1: Nothing here is talking about -1/-1 counters 2: It won't "come back" because -X/-X is not destruction (unless it is a 5/5 with 3 damage, then you disfigure. That would actually be destruction) 3: Even if it were destroyed, regeneration doesn't bring anything back, it just never goes anywhere in the first place. completely different 4: If it were to somehow "come back," and if it somehow did have -1/-1 counters, those would NOT return when the card reenters from another zone such as the graveyard
So, in conclusion, you are wrong, you are wrong, and you are wrong. In fact, your initial premise is wrong, and every further observation of yours is wrong. You have compounded incorrect rulings in such a way that it is hard to describe. Please read the comprehensive rules. Or skim them. Or talk to a judge. Or talk to someone who knows how to play Magic. Actually, just read the card. The design team is really helpful by not including the words "-1/-1 counters" on any cards that do not, in fact, involve any -1/-1 counters.
So yes StreamHopper, wither is completely different than damage. it is also different than disfigure, which does not involve wither, I am sorry to inform you. May I direct you instead to Shadowmoor and friends... I hear wither is really big over there.
PaladinOfSunhome
★★★★☆ (4.1/5.0)(5 votes)
-2/-2 for B is really good rather than having to spend 1B for a typical -3/-3 Black instant. This would go well beyond Block. Awesome art also.
4.0
xhillx
★★★☆☆ (3.3/5.0)(5 votes)
I have a basic game mechanic question. If a creature's toughness is reduced to zero through negative counters, but later in the same stack has it's toughness buffed above zero, does the creature die the moment it's toughness hit zero, or does it survive.
e.g. I play Esper Stormblade, he's a 3/2 with Flying, I then play Edge of Divinity on him, attempting to increase him to a 6/5, and in response to me playing the enchant, my opponent plays Disfigure on him.
When resolving the stack, he's first hit by disfigure, making him a 1/0, THEN (assuming he isn't swept at this point) Edge pumps him up to a 4/3.
I realize being dealt damage greater than it's current toughness sends a creature to the graveyard, but I'm not 100% sure on the ruling for negative counters as there are creatures that come into play as 0/0s and then gain +1/+1 counters, and those creatures survive after "full" resolution even though they technically exist as 0/0s for a moment.
Any help would be greatly appreciated, this ruling has surprisingly come up a lot lately.
True_Smog
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.8/5.0)(4 votes)
With Lighting Bolt reprinted it should be -3/-3.
EnV
★★★★☆ (4.0/5.0)(3 votes)
-x/-x it does not destroy a creature or promote damage it simply makes it 0/0 meaning that it dies. Regenerating says, "If this creature were to be destroyed, remove all damage from this creature and remove it from combat." Logic has nothing to do with it, the regenerate rule is just something people have to remember.
Tezz
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(3 votes)
the only time i would use vendetta is against a little annoying elf, while this takes care of it for the same mana, without me losing life. vendetta could kill fatties, but that would just be a bad move, rather use this, just for tiny ones that dont deserve a lightning bolt or terminate.
raptorjesus69
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
@ArKive
Creatures typically can't be regenerated if they're sent to the graveyard with -1/-1 counters or by spells or abilities that give a creature -X/-X (such as Disfigure) because the creature isn't technically being destroyed, just put into its owner's graveyard because its toughness is 0 or less.
This is a pretty damn good card. It's got versatility and flavor, and it's great for picking off utility creatures or taking down larger ones in combat. At {B}, you really can't beat the price. It kinda loses its power later in the game, but it can still come in handy.
4.5/5
zeyette
★☆☆☆☆ (1.0/5.0)(4 votes)
Stop dissin' my figure. I'm getting exercise.
Pwnsaw
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
This lesser spell of pwning is pretty sweet for swatting goblin guides and pesky elves. Cheap efficient removal is awesome.
JaxsonBateman
★★★★☆ (4.6/5.0)(4 votes)
In standard right now, it kills Creeping Tar Pit, Goblin Guide, Fauna Shaman, Birds of Paradise, Lotus Cobra, Glint Hawk, and I'm sure there's more that I've missed. For (B) it's fantastic.
@Xhillx - as noone seemed to straight up answer it for you, even though the post is really old, the creature is sent to the graveyard (this is different from destruction so it can't be regenerated) as soon as its toughness hits 0 *AND* state based actions are checked (which is as soon as a player gets priority, which is almost immediately). So it won't be around to receive the aura.
@True_smog - -2/-2 is almost always better than 2 damage, so it's pretty balanced against Lightning Bolt (1 less 'power' in the spell for the fact that it gets around indestructibility and regeration)
@Tezz - depending on the deck, Vendetta can be fine, or even fantastic. For example, if you've got a few cards that can give you life (I've put it in my WB Vat allies deck with Talus Paladin) it offers a half cast Doom Blade, meaning you can be the aggressor that much faster in aggro v aggro battles, or you can use less mana to eliminate control bombs (ie. Doom Blade costs 4 against Frost Titan, Vendetta costs 3 and 6 life, which a Talus Paladin trigger will easily give back with another ally alongside him).
Why? Clinging Darkness costs 1 more - which is significant at early turns - is slower since it's not instant-speed and doesn't kill nearly as many things. It can lock down a big attacker better...but it's not likely to kill them, and they'll be just sitting out there waiting for the next enchantment removal.
Disfigure gets around regen, indestructable and prevention effects, and it does so super-cheap and fast. I don't see the comparison.
tantallum99
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Great removal card. -2/-2 can get rid of a LOT of pesky creatures for just one mana and no non-black restriction. Can also help finish off a bigger creature if you can block with a smaller one.
metalevolence
★★★★☆ (4.6/5.0)(8 votes)
Is it bad if this art makes me laugh?
DacenOctavio
★★★★☆ (4.5/5.0)(17 votes)
I see a red spell and I want to paint it black. . .
Dragon_Nut
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
It has a secondary use too: I've used Disfigure as a sort of reverse Giant Growth when the opponent had something just a bit too big for the rest of my creatures to take down.
So... I thought this card was pretty powerful, and by all rights, it IS pretty epic. Now they're printing Tragic Slip in Dark Ascension, and, lemme tell you... It's pretty flippin' scary.
CorkBulb
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
This card is a very good black removal. For only , you can whack most 1, 2 or even 3 drops at instant speed. Leave just one mana open for this and either burn a creature or shrink it down to size for easier disposal. Your opponent attacks thinking "oh there's nothing for 1 he can stop me with!" Well.... This is a good example of "just when you thought you won the game GUESS WHAT? You didn't..."
4/5 for power vs CMC 4/5 for versatility 3/5 for total usefulness (kinda useless later in the game or on a big creature) 5/5 for the priceless look on you opponent's face when you hit them with this when they think you can't stop them And...... Kills a Wellwisher! 5/5!!!!
4/5 total for cheap black removal
Axelle
★★★★☆ (4.5/5.0)(1 vote)
@metalevolence: As someone who has laughed at the art of Torment's Mutilate, no, not at all.
Continue
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(1 vote)
Kills Tidehollow Sculler while there's a whole slew of two-mana kill spells that can't.
Comments (40)
Flavor-wise I think two -1/-1 counters on a creature would be far more disfiguring, but hey, instant -2/-2 is great, cheap removal for
Bye, bye Elvish Archdruid or other utility creature!
SLAP!!!!!!
If I was to play Master Transmuter, and my opponent would let the spell resolve, then Disfigure it. can i Metallurgeon my transmuter and prevent it from dieing?
From the rules DOC
701.11a If the effect of a resolving spell or ability regenerates a permanent, it creates a replacement effect that protects the permanent the next time it would be destroyed this turn. In this case, “Regenerate ” means “The next time would be destroyed this turn, instead remove all damage marked on it and tap it. If it’s an attacking or blocking creature, remove it from combat.”
I am not a judge and cant say for sure, but I believe this effect would be destroying it, therefore it would be able to regenerate from the -2/-2 counters.
anyways, one of the more useful black cards in Zendikar. Splashable, un-reducable (as in Safe Passage effects), Shock-esque spell with (imo) better combat utility. Me likey!
Technically, reducing a creature's toughness to 0 or less doesn't destroy it (701.6b) - so neither indestructibility nor regeneration help (nor would protection, for non-targeted effects like Marsh Casualties or the classic Mutilate)
similar thinking.
Please. If you are reading this comment, please take a minute to read StreamHopper's Comment. I will quote it for you:
"My friend and I had a "frank exchange of opinions" about the -1/-1 counters on a regenerating creature. When the creature is struck with a card like this one (which dictates that the -2/-2 counters don't go away until the end of the turn), when it comes back, it still has those counters on it, which destroys it altogether. Basically: Wither is a completely different concept than regular damage, and creatures who regenerate from it are only wasting your mana to regenerate."
1: Nothing here is talking about -1/-1 counters
2: It won't "come back" because -X/-X is not destruction (unless it is a 5/5 with 3 damage, then you disfigure. That would actually be destruction)
3: Even if it were destroyed, regeneration doesn't bring anything back, it just never goes anywhere in the first place. completely different
4: If it were to somehow "come back," and if it somehow did have -1/-1 counters, those would NOT return when the card reenters from another zone such as the graveyard
So, in conclusion, you are wrong, you are wrong, and you are wrong. In fact, your initial premise is wrong, and every further observation of yours is wrong. You have compounded incorrect rulings in such a way that it is hard to describe. Please read the comprehensive rules. Or skim them. Or talk to a judge. Or talk to someone who knows how to play Magic. Actually, just read the card. The design team is really helpful by not including the words "-1/-1 counters" on any cards that do not, in fact, involve any -1/-1 counters.
So yes StreamHopper, wither is completely different than damage. it is also different than disfigure, which does not involve wither, I am sorry to inform you. May I direct you instead to Shadowmoor and friends... I hear wither is really big over there.
4.0
e.g. I play Esper Stormblade, he's a 3/2 with Flying, I then play Edge of Divinity on him, attempting to increase him to a 6/5, and in response to me playing the enchant, my opponent plays Disfigure on him.
When resolving the stack, he's first hit by disfigure, making him a 1/0, THEN (assuming he isn't swept at this point) Edge pumps him up to a 4/3.
I realize being dealt damage greater than it's current toughness sends a creature to the graveyard, but I'm not 100% sure on the ruling for negative counters as there are creatures that come into play as 0/0s and then gain +1/+1 counters, and those creatures survive after "full" resolution even though they technically exist as 0/0s for a moment.
Any help would be greatly appreciated, this ruling has surprisingly come up a lot lately.
Creatures typically can't be regenerated if they're sent to the graveyard with -1/-1 counters or by spells or abilities that give a creature -X/-X (such as Disfigure) because the creature isn't technically being destroyed, just put into its owner's graveyard because its toughness is 0 or less.
This is a pretty damn good card. It's got versatility and flavor, and it's great for picking off utility creatures or taking down larger ones in combat. At {B}, you really can't beat the price. It kinda loses its power later in the game, but it can still come in handy.
4.5/5
@Xhillx - as noone seemed to straight up answer it for you, even though the post is really old, the creature is sent to the graveyard (this is different from destruction so it can't be regenerated) as soon as its toughness hits 0 *AND* state based actions are checked (which is as soon as a player gets priority, which is almost immediately). So it won't be around to receive the aura.
@True_smog - -2/-2 is almost always better than 2 damage, so it's pretty balanced against Lightning Bolt (1 less 'power' in the spell for the fact that it gets around indestructibility and regeration)
@Tezz - depending on the deck, Vendetta can be fine, or even fantastic. For example, if you've got a few cards that can give you life (I've put it in my WB Vat allies deck with Talus Paladin) it offers a half cast Doom Blade, meaning you can be the aggressor that much faster in aggro v aggro battles, or you can use less mana to eliminate control bombs (ie. Doom Blade costs 4 against Frost Titan, Vendetta costs 3 and 6 life, which a Talus Paladin trigger will easily give back with another ally alongside him).
Why? Clinging Darkness costs 1 more - which is significant at early turns - is slower since it's not instant-speed and doesn't kill nearly as many things. It can lock down a big attacker better...but it's not likely to kill them, and they'll be just sitting out there waiting for the next enchantment removal.
Disfigure gets around regen, indestructable and prevention effects, and it does so super-cheap and fast. I don't see the comparison.
*facepalm*
AAUAUAAAAUUGHGHGH!!!
I thought this card was pretty powerful, and by all rights, it IS pretty epic.
Now they're printing Tragic Slip in Dark Ascension, and, lemme tell you...
It's pretty flippin' scary.
Funny how it's literally half a Grasp of Darkness XD
4/5 for power vs CMC
4/5 for versatility
3/5 for total usefulness (kinda useless later in the game or on a big creature)
5/5 for the priceless look on you opponent's face when you hit them with this when they think you can't stop them
And...... Kills a Wellwisher! 5/5!!!!
4/5 total for cheap black removal