Funny thing since you don't need to have actual cards in hand for it to work...^^
DarthCuddles
★☆☆☆☆ (1.7/5.0)(5 votes)
Are you sure? It sounds to me like having a hand to discard is a requirement, just like paying 2 mana and tapping Null Brooch.
John-Bender
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.5/5.0)(3 votes)
Darth is right. Since the colon is after Discard hand, it is part of the cost. But if it was before, then it would just be part of the ability.
psychoshen
★★★☆☆ (3.4/5.0)(4 votes)
I think the question is whether a hand of zero cards counts as a hand. It does.
This question was answered in the following link. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/20177841/About_Null_Brooch
EvilCleavage
★☆☆☆☆ (1.0/5.0)(3 votes)
@psychoshen. . Well I looked at the link, and I don't think that is much of an answer. Just because some guy on a forum says it's right doesn't mean it is. But don't get me wrong I'd love for it to be true. It would make this card so much better. 4/5
facemcmuffin
★★★★☆ (4.7/5.0)(6 votes)
I'm pretty sure a hand of 0 cards still counts as a hand, or else your hand would cease to exist when you have no cards in it. Discarding your hand is part of the cost, but that cost can still be payed if you have no cards in hand, you simply discard your hand of no cards. It seems a little weird, but I'm pretty sure this is how the ability works.
Falgorn
★★★★☆ (4.6/5.0)(5 votes)
If your hand is empty, it still counts as a hand and can be discarded to pay for the cost. Therefore, you can use this ability freely if you have no cards in hand. Now, if Null Brooch stated that you have to discard a certain number of cards, it would be a different story (for example, this is the case with Avatar of Discord)
Also, if an empty hand did not count as "hand", a player with no cards in hand would be an illegal target for Mind Rot.
niallcmurray86
★★★★☆ (4.8/5.0)(3 votes)
Man how good would this be in a Hellbent deck!
doolydooly
★★★★☆ (4.4/5.0)(7 votes)
Discarding a hand of 0 is perfectly valid and probably the best use of this card, the fact that this is causing so much confusion boggles my mind.
Spells/abilities that involve your hand don't just fizzle if you have 0 cards, they interact with your hand and thus the 0 cards that are there.
Have to discard a card? Discard nothing. Have to reveal your hand? Reveal nothing. Have to discard your hand? Discard nothing. Something checking hand size? It's a hand size of 0.
If a hand size of 0 ceased to be a hand then the whole Hellbent mechanic wouldn't work at all.
It's really as simple as that.
Kirbster
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(7 votes)
You could use it freely without worrying about ditching cards alongside Bottled Cloister.
bijart_dauth
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(4 votes)
You can have a compleatly empty hand and still pay the cost. You are discarding a hand of 0. It is still your hand, and thus can still be discarded. Or you can cut off your hand and throw it in the trash, that would be discarding it.
This thing doesn't work well at all in a counterspell-heavy deck. It was played in some Voltaic Key - Grim Monolith artifact decks.
Delnai
★★★☆☆ (3.5/5.0)(3 votes)
@doolydooly The reason this causes confusion is that an ability cannot be activated if its cost cannot be paid. So your statement "Have to discard a card? Discard nothing." is very misleading; if the cost of this ability were 2, tap, and discard a card, then you could not activate it with an empty hand.
tavaritz
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(3 votes)
Take for example Krovikan Sorcerer. You cannot activate it's ability if you cannot discard a card, but that is different from discarding your hand. Your hand can contain any number of cards starting from 0. So from discarding standpoint, if you discard your hand you must discard whatever there is, which includes the 0 card hand.
ImissTheDuelist
★★★☆☆ (3.0/5.0)(1 vote)
This card is awsome in my Damia EDH deck. especially with seedborn muse to keep it untapping, and its super evil if I deathwish into my board for arcane lab
zenitramleirdag
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
this, together with liliana of the veil on the battlefield is a lock that hard to get out from..
im not sure though if its fast enough for legacy..
Moxxy
★★★★★ (5.0/5.0)(2 votes)
Ok, who rated doolydooly comment 5 stars and Delnai 0.5?
Deinai is correct "Have to discard a card? Discard nothing." is wrong. If it said ,, Discard a card: effect then you could not activate the effect with no cards in your hand because "Discard a card" is before the colon and is a required cost.
The reason Null Brooch still works as printed is because a hand of 0 is still a hand. The same would be true for exiling an empty library or graveyard. Even with no cards in them those spaces still exist because they are zones, not physical entities like cards, spells permanents etc...
Lord_Ascapelion
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Did not realize you could use this over and over... if you;re top-decking, it's quite brutal :o
BongRipper420
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
There exist aggro decks that could use this, I'm certain. This can make a great answer to Wrath effects.
Cyberium
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Combo with Cursed Scroll as well, since you will have a smaller hand size, you can always play the spell or the Scroll ability before you activate Null Brooch.
DarthParallax
★☆☆☆☆ (1.0/5.0)(1 vote)
"Counter target spell" is clearly one of the best things that a card can say. Be straightup honest- I mean that it ranks up there with 'win the game' (#1), 'take an extra turn' (#2), and is maybe in the Top 5 lines of text it's possible for a card to have. Look at what we pay for such effects. Pact of Negation, Force of Will. I understand that a lot of people want Counterspell back. But I don't think it's happening in Standard or Modern. There are cards that look like some of the worst wastes of cardboard/pieces of trash ever in a 'generic'/'Limited'/Casual build, but in a correctly specialized Constructed deck, it seems that almost no price is to high too pay to "Counter target spell", and this means that a card as quick and easy at doing it as Counterspell is...unlikely to pass Development anymore.
Earthdawn
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Use this in an old-school Rakdos deck and combo with Voltaic Key + Rings of Brighthearth and and mana artifact. Keep your Hellbent active and lock down any removal :)
LordRandomness
☆☆☆☆☆ (0.0/5.0)
Obviously ridiculous in a hellbent deck. What's slightly less obvious is the fact that it's actually really good in aggro: By the time you've hit four mana your hand is probably empty anyway, and if you can make this stick it's highly effective board wipe protection (well, before they printed Supreme Verdict anyway).
Also it's a colorless Negate on a stick, c'mon. Noncreature seems to suggest that you play it by simply dumping all your creatures onto the board followed by this, letting you control the creature situation via board position and keeping spanners away with this card. Of course, slipping a couple of madness spells in couldn't hurt!
Comments (27)
This question was answered in the following link.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/20177841/About_Null_Brooch
Also, if an empty hand did not count as "hand", a player with no cards in hand would be an illegal target for Mind Rot.
Spells/abilities that involve your hand don't just fizzle if you have 0 cards, they interact with your hand and thus the 0 cards that are there.
Have to discard a card? Discard nothing.
Have to reveal your hand? Reveal nothing.
Have to discard your hand? Discard nothing.
Something checking hand size? It's a hand size of 0.
If a hand size of 0 ceased to be a hand then the whole Hellbent mechanic wouldn't work at all.
It's really as simple as that.
im not sure though if its fast enough for legacy..
Deinai is correct "Have to discard a card? Discard nothing." is wrong. If it said
The reason Null Brooch still works as printed is because a hand of 0 is still a hand. The same would be true for exiling an empty library or graveyard. Even with no cards in them those spaces still exist because they are zones, not physical entities like cards, spells permanents etc...
Also it's a colorless Negate on a stick, c'mon. Noncreature seems to suggest that you play it by simply dumping all your creatures onto the board followed by this, letting you control the creature situation via board position and keeping spanners away with this card. Of course, slipping a couple of madness spells in couldn't hurt!
HELLBENT